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In this Discussion
- brewsmith September 2014
- CothermanDistilling September 2014
- crozdog September 2014
- EdInNH August 2015
- FloridaCracker August 2015
- grim April 2015
- Grudaire July 2014
- jbierling September 2014
- Sunshine July 2014
EdInNH's Bourbon Experiment
I am experimenting with my Bourbon mash recipe.
I have been using Crosby and Baker DADY Distillers yeast and want to find the difference made by each change.
My mash bill starts with:
75 % Corn 50.0 pounds
20 % Rye 13.3 pounds
5 % Barley Malt (Cargill HIAA Malt) 3.3 pounds
5 gal backset from an earlier Bourbon run
heads and tails from an earlier Bourbon spirit run
Yeast
2 pcs vitamin pills
2 pcs Calcium citrate Pills
Enzymes
15 ml SebFlo
15 ml SebStar
15 ml SebAmyl
Bottled oxygen to oxygenate the mash for the yeast
Water to bring the level in 30 gallon Blue HDPE drum
(my fermenter) 3 to 4 inches below the rim.
My procedure is to grind all my grain in my Corona style mill. Add the backset and let it sit overnight. Add water and cook the corn and rye in the fermenter with steam injection. (I built a steam head for my keg for cooking with steam.) Add SebFlo at 100°F heating to 160°F over 30+ minutes, cook for an hour at 190-200°F cool to 180°F. Add SebStar hold temperature for 2 hours. Cool and add malt at 145°F, cool and add SebAmyl at 130°F. Hold at 130°F for 1 hour. Cool to 90°F, Bubble oxygen for 10 minutes and pitch yeast.
I strain the mash after fermentation with a mop wringer and distill with a 4 perf plate DASH.
The 30 gallon drum produces two batches for my still. I do a fast stripping run on the first batch and add the low wines from this run to my second batch and do a spirit run on this batch. The heads and tails not blended in are added to a future spirit run.
I typically get a starting BRIX reading of 20 (Specific Gravity 1.083) and a final reading of 9 (SG 1.007 and 10 % Alcohol).
I produced good whiskey with the DADY yeast but want to make the best so I am now experimenting with yeasts.
My first experiment was to compare EC-1118 and White Labs liquid Bourbon Yeast side by side.
I ground the grain for two batches and used two 5 gallon jugs of backset from my last DADY batch. I created a starter for the White Labs Yeast 3/4 gallon water, 1 pound Light Malt Extract, enzymes, 1 tsp yeast energizer (DAP) and 1 tube of WL Bourbon Yeast. I oxygenated the mash with a sintered airstone connected to my welding oxygen tank. After 12 hours I saw little activity so I added a second tube of WL Bourbon yeast. Another 12 hours later there was a good bed of yeast in the starter.
The two batches fermented at the same time within 2 feet of each other (so had the same fermenting conditions)
I distilled both batches adding the same amount of heads and tails from a DADY spirit run.
The EC-1118 produced bourbon which is great and may with a bit more aging be the best bourbon I have ever tasted.
The White Labs batch was undrinkable with a rancid aftertaste. Adding the second tube of yeast to the starter and not starting over when the starter was slow may have been my mistake. Alternatively I may need more copper in my column for this yeast (I have the stainless perf plates with copper downcomers. The downcomers are the only copper in the column.
Any suggestions?
I am now fermenting the next side by side test: High Spirits Whiskey yeast vs Liquor Quick Whiskey yeast.
Comments
I've used White Labs Tennessee Whiskey, American Whiskey, and Bourbon Whiskey yeasts. My preference is in that order, however all are good in my book. Nottingham is one of my favorites for whiskey. If you are looking for something different, try the fruitier ale yeasts (I prefer a fruity/estery note in the new make, I think it adds complexity and rounds out nice with aging).
I think the off flavors were as a result of the starter and pitching problems, you need to pitch much more.
Plugging your numbers into a yeast pitch calculator says you need roughly 1700 billion cells, where your starter only yields 400-800 billion depending on how you are keeping her moving, or not.
You probably won't be able to go from 1-2 vials to a 30g pitch in one shot. The second vial isn't getting you much. Also, your starter is a bit on the high side from an sg perspective.
1 vial in 2 liters of 1.04 with a stirplate gets you to near 600 billion, a second step into 8 liters on a stirplate (let settle and decant liquid) brings you to 1750 billion. Nice and easy peasy.
I pitch from slants, so it takes me a couple more steps to get to big pitches. I'll usually step into a corny keg, and then into a half barrel keg.
I personally think 90 degrees is too high to pitch into, it's stressful. White Labs says the optimum for the Bourbon strain is 72-77, a long way off. I've pitched all these hot and they tend to increase esters and fusels, not terribly, but it's there. The higher temps I believe also give the other bacteria a head start.
What was your pH at time of pitching?
I can distill the 3 white labs yeasts above, pitched at appropriate rates, and fermented in the suggested temp rates, with absolutely zero copper, and have absolutely no off flavors, no sulfur, no meaty, no yeasty notes. None. Zero. Distilling a strained mash with yeast, no settling.
I'm not a fan of DADY.
One more note, in my starters I never add any enzymes, and typically only a very small amount of yeast nutrient. In the 3-4l, I'd probably only add 1/8-1/4 teaspoon. Not saying correct, only what i do.
why add backset? why add heads and tails - sorry I don't get it.
StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area
Whiskey that approaches a neutral tends to be very monotonous from a flavor perspective, lacking complexity, depth, flat. Becomes more like an eau de vie of grain, highlighting the individual grain flavor. Don't get me wrong, the results can be spectacular, but very different from a traditional bourbon.
Baby got Back ... set!
Hard to describe with words, but mash a whiskey, run it, mash a second whiskey with backset (20% or so) and compare it against the first, you'll taste what I mean. The next generations don't necessarily improve much, the impact is most notable with and without. There is something in the second generation that enhances the "whiskey" flavor.
From a nonflavor perspective - saves water, lowers pH without using acids, and adds nutrients.
Adding feints, whether or not you argue if the definition includes heads or not, is somewhat about improving yield, but it also adds to the flavor. Now, running a plated column and stacking heads before take off, I wouldn't add these back. But heads from a pot still (not fores), that's another story.
Grim,
I have Nottingham and plan to use it in my next test run.
Have you tried a whiskey with both an ale and lager yeast in the same ferment? I read an interesting post on this technique on one of the forums.
Can you recommend a yeast calculator?
I prepared the starter in a gallon jug on a stirplate. I used 3/4 gallon of water to leave enough headspace to prevent overflow. (It was close to overflowing before I pitched.)
I don't have a pH reading I trust. My $10 eBay pH meter appeared to work and said the mash was 4.2 for both drums. A few days later it failed totally and I have not replaced it yet.
I don’t have a wort chiller (yet) so I am afraid the bacteria would have just as much time with a cooler pitch temperature for the yeast.
Sunshine,
The backset adds flavor and the acid helps break down the grain. It also helps buffer the pH of the fermenting mash.
I added the heads and tails to recover some of the alcohol which would otherwise have been lost. I am new to cuts and I am being very careful what I include in my blend, probably excessively so. It made sense to me to tray and recover some of the whiskey. (I discard the fores.)
DADY may not have been the best choice but it was a start for my experiments in distilling.
I think this calculator is easy to use.
Yeah. That is a good one, I much prefer it to the ever popular mr malty version as it gives options of professional pitch rates. I think the homebrew pitch rate that mr malty uses is not enough and personally pitch at the professional rate for my beer.
Bit of a thread resurrection, but I was wondering if you would mind posting a picture or at least some details about your keg steam head @EdInNH. I have most of the bits I think I need already, but I always like to refer to as many designs as possible.
Hi @brewsmith,
My steamer is made with 2" TC components. A TC cross is the core. The bottom of the cross connects to my boiler. One side connects to a pressure relief valve preset to 10 PSI. The top connects to a ball valve for manual pressure control (a tube raises the valve to a more convenient height). The remaining side connects to a high temperature silicone tube and the immersion tube.
The immersion tube has small holes drilled to allow the steam to escape. A screw connect in the bottom section of the immersion tube allows the inside of the tube to be cleaned.
The manual control valve MUST be opened when heat is cut off. The cooling boiler will cause a vacuum to form and will pull mash into the immersion tube and boiler. The mash solids will accumulate in the tube. This is the reason for the ability to clean the inside of the immersion tube.
I will be starting another yeast test run of my bourbon in the next two weeks. This time I will be repeating the EC1118 and comparing it to Nottingham. I will report on this test when I have results.
An improvement would replace my pressure relief valve with a low cost version of a combined pressure/vacuum relief similar to Vacuum & Pressure Relief Valve @ GW Kent but with a 5 psi pressure rating. (Consider this a hint to @Smaug and @Lloyd).
Awesome build there @EdInNH thanks for the details. Looks very similar to what I was envisioning. SO you are currently running the boiler at 10psi? I have a 10-15psi steam relief valve on hand that I was going to fit in, but wanted to make sure the TC fittings were OK at that heat/pressure
@brewsmith, While mine isn't made out of nice SD TC fittings, it still works well & I thought you'd be interested.
the 4" to 2" reducer is off the top of my dash & mounts on top of my 6kw keg boiler. It connects to a 2" threaded end cap with screw in standard pipe fitting. the rest is 3/4" copper & off the shelf fittings. I fitted 2 unions so I can adjust the depth of the sparge ring.
The 3 way ball valve allows adjustment & opening to vent after shutting down as @EdInNH says - I forgot to open it 1 day & ended up with a keg full of cooked corn!!!
Cause i'm playing with steam, I believe in being cautious, so forked out $$$$ for a proper steam rated pressure relief. The lagging has been a great cheap investment as I have brushed past it a couple of times & realised I would have burnt myself without it. So apart from the PRV, the rest probably cost me less than $50 as I already had some of the bits on hand.
What didn't you like about DADY?
Why not?
Ran a couple of test batches with it (AG, same grain bills, fermented on grain), went through a third of a bag and gave up on it. Thought it had too much sulfur, very struck match on the nose, out of a pot distillation. I've got a zero tolerance policy on sulfur. On the second run I just turned the rig off and dumped the whole batch. Had a similar experience with Fermentis American Whiskey - they seemed very similar to me, even though the listed specs were different. In both cases the pitch and ferment temps needed to be kept very low to eliminate the sulfur nose. I think the best run in either case was a mid 70s pitch, and a high 60s ferment. Both of these at high temps (Low-Mid 80s) were really a stink bomb for me. In both cases at low ferment temps, the resulting product was very boring, one note, monochromatic. However, my preference is for higher esters, I like the ale yeasts best.
The operating pressure is far less. The pressure is just what it takes to blow gas through a few feet of water. This is less than 2 psi.
The 10 psi relief valve is low enough to prevent a boiler explosion but I would prefer a lower pressure setting. I looked for a 5 psi relief valve but couldn't find a suitable and affordable relief valve.
(There is a tiny 5 psi relief valve sold by the Colorado still company. Since it fits in a 1/8 NPT fitting wide open I doubt it would release enough pressure to prevent my 11,000 W keg from continuing to build pressure.)
I want to make sure I don't replicate the Mythbusters experiments with exploding water heaters.
Apollo Valves sells a low pressure brass steam safety relief valve in large diameter as low as 5psi, 13 series valve. I think they run about $40-50 for a 3/4 and $60-75 for the 1 inch. IMHO this is very inexpensive given the application. I shudder to think what the cost will be if the keg splits and you are standing in the wrong place.
Apollo 13-211-B05
Apollo 13-202-B05
When I started this experiment DADY was my standard yeast. I wanted to learn what different yeasts would do to the flavor of my bourbon. SO I am keeping the rest of my mash bill the same and changing only the yeast.
So far I have found that I like Bourbon made with the EC-1118 yeast better.
I like these valves. With a 290 pounds per hour rating the 3/4 inch valve will be able to drain my keg in a few minutes.
As far as the cost of a keg splitting see the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bU-I2ZiML0
Would also recommend a secondary safety device, add a temp probe to the boiling water, use a simple temperature controller along with an SSR to control the heating element. Set it to run normally closed and open once the set point is reached. Use a set point of about 226F, which corresponds to about 5psi. Calibrate the probe and controller by allowing it to boil open to the atmosphere. You might need to set it a little higher depending on the head pressure of the calandra along with the liquid you are steaming.
why not just a large hose going into a deeper bucket of water? Every 2' of water is 1psi, make a 10' PVC column, maybe get the clear PVC to be cool... or you could use a couple loops of clear hose and just test the PSI it takes to blow through...
@grim the valve I am using now is very similar to the valves you recommended.
I am using the Apollo 13-511 valve. It is variable between 5 and 15 psi (preset for 10) but did not come with instructions for changing the pressure setting.
Its time for an update on my progress
Yeast Experiment
After side by side fermentation and aging on oak of another run of EC-1118 and my first run of Nottingham bourbons I can report that both are very good but I (and my tasters) prefer the EC-1118 bourbon.
My distilling hardware continues to evolve
I added a vacuum relief valve to my mash steamer and no longer have problems sucking mash into my boiler when power is reduced. I can now control the steaming process with the boiler power control and not by venting steam.
I added a minimal cost clean in place system. I used the 4" to 2" torpedo (with a site glass) as the reducer above the dephlegmator. I removed the glass and it has a solid cover plate when I am running the still and a 2" TC to garden hose adapter to flush the column. I added a tee above the product condenser so I can flush the product condenser too.
I mounted my product condenser to my cart and connect to the column with a 2" TC flexible pipe. It is 8 inches. I wish it was 18 inches or even a meter.
Android application for refractometer calculations
I created a simple Android application to do refractometer calculations. I use a refractometer to measure my mash to The application converts the initial Brix reading to Specific Gravity and converts the initial and current Brix readings to the current SG and Alcohol concentration.
I will make the application available if there is interest.
Recirculating dephlegmator temperature control
I am now working on a recirculating temperature control for my dephlegmator
I found and purchased an Omega PID controller and Johnson Controls 1/2 inch 3-way valve on eBay.
I used the design @grim described in this thread.
I use three pumps in my system. The first is a submersible pump for the product condenser. The second is a submersible pump to pump waste cooling water to the household drain. The third is the pump for the dephlegmator cooling.
I feed cooling water from the bottom of a 50 gallon drum. The hot water which goes through the system is returned to a second drum (currently a 30 gallon drum). The hose between the drums runs from the bottom of the 30 gallon drum to the top of the 50 gallon drum. Gravity keeps the level in the two drums the same as the cooling operates. Late in the run when the cooling water is getting hot, I turn on a submersible pump in the 30 gallon drum and pump to a drain. Cold tap water is added to the 50 gallon drum to maintain the water level.
I decided to mount displays for cold water and product condenser water temperatures next to the Omega. I had one SSR controlling PID (a spare for my Sous Vide water bath). I ordered a new one and cut 3 45mm holes for the PIDs in a box. I added a power switch and mounted a 24 volt transformer in the box. The sensors and control output connect through barrier strips on the back.
I drilled out the brass insert of three StillDragon temperature tees to 5mm and threaded it with a 6mm tap for an RTD (PT100) from eBay.
Unfortunately the omega controller was defective, the numbers displayed on the second line had extra and/or missing segments ... I ordered a Sestos controller from eBay. When it arrived the display would not light up. I am now waiting for a third attempt with another Sestos.
The Sestos controller produces a 4-20 ma output and the valve needs a 0-10 volt control input. I assume that a 500 Ohm resister across the output will give me the voltage signal I need. (That is I assume that the input impedance of the valve control voltage is much higher than 500 Ohms.) I tried to ask an application engineer at Johnson Controls. The response I got was - Johnson Controls will not answer even the simplest question about a device purchased through eBay or from anyone other than the original purchaser from their distributor.
I ran some Corn Whiskey last weekend with a wrench on the mixing valve.
The first result: Using the mixer valve I am able to get better control of the dephlegmator temperature than I was getting with an inline valve.
500 ohm resistor across is correct - See page 7 (PDF)
I think the thing to note is if the pipe length between your valve and dephlegmator is reasonable, responsiveness of the 3 way plumbed in constant-flow rate will be much faster, especially if you are operating at near the closed position of the valve.
How do you like the EC and Nottingham compared to the DADY?
I kept the water volume in the loop small. I have 1/2 inch copper between the valves (3-way, ball valve and balancing valve) and the 12mm OD plastic tubing (StillDragon tubing for push connects).
The yeasts I have used are: DADY, High Spirits, Liquor Quick, White Labs Bourbon, Nottingham, EC-1118.
From "best" down I rank them:
The bottom three were undrinkable with the White Labs batch being remarkably bad. The Ec-1118 and Nottingham are both very good. The difference between them is the flavor profiles. While I and my tasters preferred EC-1118 I am sure many people will prefer the Nottingham. Using the Four Roses model (2 mash bills and 5 yeasts) both of these yeasts could be used as good yeast alternatives. The DADY produced a Bourbon I was happy with, utill I tried the EC-1118. The EC-1118 (and Nottingham) produce a Bourbon so much better that I doubt I will ever make Bourbon with DADY again.
My yeast ratings have a major problem. For the bottom 3 yeasts I have only made one batch of mash with each, so I am generalizing from a single data point. The top 3 yeasts have each been used for multiple batches so my evaluation of these yeasts is more reliable (or at least more reproducible). I did run the test batches of the bottom three yeasts with a drum fermenting with EC-1118 next to the test yeast.
I have an interesting result from my experimentation.
I changed the salt I use in my water softener and there is a change in taste of my Bourbon.
I was using Potassium Salt in my water softener when I started distilling.
I switched to Rust Eliminating Sodium Salt for two reasons: it costs 2/3 less than the Potassium salt and I wanted to clean rust particles off the ion exchange bed (I have a major iron problem). (I called Diamond Crystal Salt company and asked what was added for iron control. The answer was a small percentage of citric acid.)
My Bourbon clearly has a different flavor profile since the change.
My best results were produced when the water softener brine tank was filled with Potassium Salt.
I too have a salt based water softener AND a chlorinator. Our water is from a shallow well that smells like sulfur. Before I put a drop of water anywhere near my wash/mash/still I run it through 2 filters and I would suggest that you do the same. Any salts or chemicals WILL flavor your spirits.
Hi @FloridaCracker
I run my water through three stages of processing. The water comes from a drilled well with an aquifer below the top layer of bedrock. The first processing step is a venturi to inject air bubbles into the water stream from the well. Next there is a tank with small whiffle balls and an air vent to divert the injected air. This is to add oxygen and convert the soluble iron to insoluble rust particles. The water goes to a sand bed filter (with a timer for back flush operations). Next the water softener and then a final 2 micron filter.
Laboratory testing shows no need for a carbon filter and the taste of the water is very good.
The only techniques I know of which could remove the sodium or potassium ions would be Reverse Osmosis or distillation. An ion exchange bed could exchange one ion for another which is the function of the water softener (exchange Sodium or Potassium ions for calcium ions).
@FloridaCracker your message inspired me to learn about water purification.
Given what I learned, I need to (to use a Washington phrase) 'revise and extend my comments'. (i.e. my comments in my last paragraph were wrong.)
I learned that the Resins used by the water filters are not ion-exchange resins (like a water softener), they bond to specific ions. These water purification resins are not recharged, they are single use. For extremely clean water they are a final purification stage removing the the last few ppm from the water.
Reverse Osmosis (and prefilters) can get the water down below 10 ppm. The Resin bed can reduce it to nearly 0 ppm.
This week I tried my Nottingham bourbon for the first time since April. It is still on oak (Charred barrel stave pieces).
The taste is far better than it was. It is now very good and there is no clear winner between EC1118 and Nottingham except the EC1118 ages on oak a lot faster and is a less expensive yeast (when purchased in the 500 gram package).
The Nottingham is still on oak to see if the improvement continues.
I'm convinced that I would have some stank ass hooch if I didn't do it this way.