Still Size vs Boiler Size vs Power vs Output

fadge

Hi all, do we have a chart or spreadsheet anywhere that lists the rough parameters of each common still size setups?
I have a friend who in the future wants a 8" CD, but I'm unsure of what matches for boiler size/power needed.
I know he really only needs a 4" or the new 5" maybe, at most a 6".
He has a small winery and this will be the next addition, I will be assisting on startup and running as he loves my product that I've produced so far.
He was impressed with the pics floating around on this site, as well as @punkin's store site.

eg A chart may have these details- recommended type of setups?

2" series, boiler size   25-50lt, 1800w-3600w, 1-3lt/hr avg spirit runs
4" series, boiler size  50-120lt, 2400w-4800w, 3-4lt/hr avg spirit runs
5" series, boiler size 100-340lt, 4000w-6000w, 5-6lt/hr avg spirit runs

etc

I don't want to get to much into it depends on number of plates, what your making type of stuff, just a basic match up of equipment that in general works together reasonably well.

ta

fadge

rossco

Speed will vary across the run as the operator changes the reflux. It slows but max is about 4 litres per hour, dont really take much notice. My view is that 2400w is too little for a 4in. Mine works best between 3600 and 4200w, my boiler is 84litres and a typical charge is 75litres approx.

Myles

I am not sure it ever got compiled but I think a rule of thumb is:

Column  Output                  Power
 2"            0.75 L/h                 1.5 kW
 3"     2.50 - 3.80 L/h          2.5 -  3.0 kW
 4"     4.50 - 5.00 L/h          4.5 -  5.0 kW
 5"
 6"                              9.0 - 11.0 kW
 8"                             22.0 - 27.0 kW
12"

However these are old figures. Your first consideration for still choice nowadays should be the available power source, then match column to power. Boiler size can be anything you like and is determined by your run time. If you don't mind a 30 hour run then use a bigger boiler, want it wrapped up in 4 hours then use a smaller one.

Newer plate designs may require higher power in each size.
;)

jonno

I agree with @Myles, base your size on what power you have available. I keep thinking it want a bigger boiler for my runs but if I do that I'll need bigger then 4". I'm quite happy with my sub 4 hour runs, don't think I'd go longer anymore. 4" with 50l boiler

jbierling

Keep in mind that you may want a boiler 1.5-2x bigger than what you think you will use just so you have sufficient headspace for foaming washes.

Myles

It is very easy to get lured into building or buying something bigger than you can actually use. I am as guilty as everyone else.
I started building a 6" column until one day I suddenly realized I just wouldn't be able to power it.

I am now scaling it back to about 5" and am deliberately re-designing the plates to work with 6kW.

I do have a few little tweaks in reserve, so I could run at higher power if I really wanted to. The boiler itself is (as mentioned above) going to have approx 2x still charge capacity. This lets you run dirty foamy washes if you wish to do so.

Just because you have the bigger still available don't forget that sometimes you might wish to get out that 5 gallon boiler for a fast run.

rossco

@Myles I recon the power figures for the 4" are a bit high. If I try to run mine at 4.8kw it wants to flood the bottom two plates all the time. It does this with both 50 & 84litre boilers. Maybe I just use way more reflux than you boys, but that floods the top plate. I understand the issue with larger diameter rigs. I only have 4.8kw so I think even a 5" would be too big for my current situation.

punkin

Really good suggestion fadge. I have tried to start this in a thread format a couple times on a couple sites, but sometimes it's like pulling teeth.

I believe it's because everybody runs so differently.

1 person may run like Rossco with 4000 odd watts on a 4" column and take off 4l/hr, someone else may start tasting heads at anything over 2400 watt 2l/hr.

And when you get into sieve V bubble things get crazier again. Grim puts in enough to power a small town, but he has 76 plates and uses hogsheads as collection jars. :D

But i would absolutely love to have a list like you have proposed, with average power levels and takeoff rates for different size columns. The boiler size matching is lots easier although would still benefit, as Myles say's, it's related to run times (which also ties into takeoff rates).

There is a thread here somewhere that is titled 'StillDragon Performance Around The World' that has made a start on it, someone with more patience than me may be able to search it up.

MickyMoonshine

Ive got 130lt boiler with 4 plate 4"SD. For a 90 odd lt charge I throw 9600w at start up till plates start to load 45 mins then back it off between 2400 and 3600w for the run. It takes between 5 and 6 hours to get 10 lt @ 90%. When the alcometer starts to rise I switch if of. I hope this helps.

RedDoorDistillery

With a 350 Gallon Boiler and charging with 260 Gallon 10% wash on an 8" column the run days are still quite long. If I had it to do all over again I would have sized everything to run 100gallon washes in a 150 to 175 gallon boiler using the 8" column to make the run time more manageable. If I really needed to I could run 2x in a day but I would not be locked into 12hr runs from heatup to shutdown. For an 8" I would not setup any boiler for less than 33,000 watts. Just to make sure you have enough power. And it would shorten the heatup time. Do you need the 44,000 watts I have. No.

The 350gallon boiler with the 260 gallon wash would be sized pretty well for the new 12" column if you have the power to run it.

fadge

@myles that the rough type of thing i was looking for @punkin the idea is for a ballpark scale or chart as you have stated.

If I was to ring or email you and ask whats the suggested setup for a 4" dash style, you will most likely ask a few things like, what are you wanting to produce?, what power are you going to use? then you may say OK convert a keg and try to run up to 3600w.
That's almost how l bought my unit !

Would you recommend a 8 incher for my setup - doubt it, I know I could put one on a 50lt keg but whats the point I'd not have enough wash to bother with such a overkill. And yep can chuck a 4" on a 1000lt boiler but I like to sleep in my bed not watching a still for 2 days straight!

I can see there is no one size fits all, but ballpark stuff may be handy.

Now back to a 8" cd , what is the average run rate ? And what would be the minimum requirements for boiler size or power to run?

I see with the new new 5" and 12" stuff we are already getting some numbers floating around

@Lloyd said:

The 5" trials are producing about twice the output as the 4".

@RedDoorDistillery said:

Going from 4" to 8" improved output from 5L to around 18-20l. So going up to a 12" should yield around 40-50L hr if you have enough power to push it and generate enough vapor off the boiler. and If you have a conservative avg rate of 15L on a 8" bubble over the coarse of the entire run. Scaling this up to 12" should get you an Avg output of 33L. Early on it would be much faster. But I am talking about the average collection rate over an entire run.

I thank everyone for the comments, but is producing a chart worthwhile or just too hard with everyone wanting to run a bit different and differing needs?

fadge

punkin

I got unlazy Fadge and figured out how to create a proper search engine so google will search this site properly.

First hit when i punched in the title was the one i was looking for Yippee!!

Stilldragon Performance From Around The World.

Not that there was one iota of information volunteered. X_X

Moonshine

I'm confused why some forum members seem to have troubles using our forum's built in search function.

If you enter "performance from around the world" (including the quotation marks!) into our search box at the top right below our forum logo, you get the exact find.

Another option is to search by tag. If you click >>> HERE <<< you get the exact find (mind how the link looks like).

And even if you only enter #performance (a hashtag mention like this is like a search for the word behind the hashtag) you will eventually find that discussion on page 3.

The built in search function can do, only an advanced interface is missing.

punkin

I'm just basic mate. Advanced is there now anyway.

Lloyd

So no more search bitching @punkin?
You got it figured out and can help others?

CothermanDistilling

Would I be close if I guessed the max of the new style bubble plate power handling was:

5" - 10Kw 6" - 15Kw 8" - 25Kw

punkin

@Lloyd said: So no more search bitching punkin?
You got it figured out and can help others?

Absolutely got it figured out. It was a real bugbear for me.

I hope it helps others. That's something that's important to me. B-)

Smaug

@CothermanDistilling said: Would I be close if I guessed the max of the new style bubble plate power handling was:

5" - 10Kw
6" - 15Kw
8" - 25Kw

For heat up right?

CothermanDistilling

running.... @Lloyd says he has 7Kw on the 5" nextgen CD and it can take more... so I guessed 10Kw, and extrapolated from there...

dad

I think you need several charts or a spread sheet calculator (sound familiar)...the most basic is Time to Heat UP.

1. Boiler size- Gallons/Liters x wattage = time to 75 C (170 deg F)

2. Product Flow- Boiler Charge ABV% x wattage x efficiency of still head (Pot Stripping)/packed column/XX sieve plate(s)/X# bubble cap(x)) = Product Output I'm sure there are average vapor speed for each still and wattage increase to keep up with Charge ABV Decrease equations.

Side note- Thank you @RedDoorDistillery, you have given testimony to one of my highly held principles. I also believe in designing the production for eight hour shifts. I'm trying to size each item in production for eight hours or less. Not that I can't mash or bottle while watching the still run, but to be able to start, finish and clean things in approximately eight hours.

Lloyd

@CothermanDistilling said: running.... Lloyd says he has 7Kw on the 5" nextgen CD and it can take more... so I guessed 10Kw, and extrapolated from there...

It can take more, and without either flooding or blow-through, but above about 6Kw I was noticing tails smearing into the hearts. Though strangely after a couple of days of airing it was no longer noticeable to me and the product was actually quite tasty.
I'd think 7Kw or thereabouts is the upper end on the new 5". 6Kw(ish) might be the sweet spot. Its too early to draw the line as I'm the only one to run this so far and there are so many clever people out there that can get better results than I do.

If I could add just one more thing to the spreadsheet that @dad describes above, it would be "height" as that is often the deciding factor of what you CAN have. I had my personal boiler made with its legs about 6" shorter than normal so I could add one more plate. It puts the drain valve a bit close to the floor.

CothermanDistilling

Thanks... I have 25kw to play with in my 380L, deciding which diameter of the CD2 would be best...

Finespirit

@CothermanDistilling said: Thanks... I have 25kw to play with in my 380L, deciding which diameter of the CD2 would be best...

We are going with 8" with that setup roughly that setup. Keep us in the loop.