From my reef aquarium days I fell in love with Iwaki and Blueline, both beautiful pumps, fantastic head capacity, and very low power usage.
For most folks, something like a Blueline 40HD would be plenty overkill - 21 feet head, 790gph, and only 120 watts power usage. (Not the HDX, completely different pump). The bigger 55HD would be plenty for even the larger setups, and this is only 1/4 horse.
Otherwise, I've had good results with the Taco 00R 3 speed pumps - this is a plumbing recirc pump that can handle a 21 ft head and 1100gph at zero. The nice thing about this one is that it's got 3 speeds, so you can dial it back as appropriate for smaller setups. It's damn cheap at $80, but you will need to plumb it with flanges (more complex than pushing a hose on) and you will need to wire it with an electrical cord.
I think the challenge is everyone's flow numbers are going to be wildly different, since we aren't standardizing on temperatures, likewise you'll have higher flow requirements to keep the still in 100% reflux, then down collecting heads, then up again as you approach tails. Not to mention differences in condenser efficiency.
Just plugging numbers into the homedistiller condenser calc, which should give us something close to 100% knock down:
Power knock down - flow rate assuming 15c input, and 50c output (all else standard):
@grim said:
Everything is a trade off in one way or another. If you are running off municipal water, your water pressure is high enough that the hose and fittings are irrelevant. It's only the recirc scenario where it becomes more important. However, 1/2" also becomes much more complicated as push-fit hoses in 1/2" (pex) are no longer as flexible and will be difficult to work with, you'd probably need to move to rubber hoses or use a more complex plumbing arrangement (push fit 90's, etc).
Also don't think there will be a one-size-fits-all solution here - realistically, the sizing for a 4" dephleg is going to be completely different than an 8" dephleg, and still different from a 12" dephleg. Realistically, we'll probably need 2 or 3 different valve suggestions and at least 3 different pump suggestions.
There's got to be a better way than using an overkill pump throttled down to single digits flow rates.
Just plumb a bi-pass return back to the rez. Can run the pump balz out and govern flow to the dee-fleg with a 3-way valve........What am I missing here?
Also, on the defleg water flow issue. Counter flow will be optimal in terms of knock down but then you have to solve the siphoning issue and will likely always have an air bubble at the top of the depleg unless you engineer a purge to bleed out any remaining air. Perhaps it is a none issue if the dephleg performs regardless?
In put at the bottom with the valve on the discharge side insures that no siphoning occurs and that an air bubble will not occupy the head space within the condenser...Or am I not understanding the discussion?
The pump oversized flow problem can be fixed by putting a 2 way ball valve across the pump and feed the discharge straight back to the suction. Also lowers power consumption of the pump. Seen this done in cheapy control systems to keep a constant pressure using a modulating valve, pressure transducer and controller.
Yep @Smaug there are minor issues feeding the dephleg from the top. Air bleed valve on top of the dephleg and raise the discharge pipe just above the inlet to stop drain down.
Missing? Just obsession really. How to design a dephleg. control system that rivals what exists on the german stills.
Manual control works just fine, and the big ass pump approach is easy since you don't have to worry about undersizing, bleed through your bypass and run a valve on the condenser and you can eventually dial it in.
A solenoid based system is good, but a proportional valve can hold condenser temps much more solidly than a solenoid based system can. Less variation means better control, which translates to a more consistent product.
Problem is, you can't use the big ass pump approach with a valve, the valve needs to be sized to the system. And, if you are going to go through the trouble of sizing the valve, you might as well size the pump so the entire package works well together.
Incorrectly size a proportional valve, and you lose controllability over the flow.
If the valve is too small, it ends up living it's life at the high end of the range, from 75-100% open for example, or even worse, it becomes a restriction to flow.
If the valve is too big, the opposite happens, it lives it's life from 0-25% open. Or, even worse, it begins to act like a solenoid because even small opening percentages overwhelm the condenser.
Size it right and the valve uses the full range of 0-100% depending on the situation (or as close to it as possible). Theoretically, this should let you keep temperatures much more stable with much less over and undershoot.
Couple the right valve with a high quality PID controller, now you've got something going. Some of the better controllers can even work to auto-tune the appropriate PID settings such that they can learn how quickly the system responds, and use that to dial in temps even quicker.
Do the legwork to figure out the right combinations, and for the hobby user, you can have a control system that rivals anything out of Germany for a couple hundred bucks. For the pro guys, it's a system that can help you deliver higher levels of product consistency from batch to batch. Now, we know it won't make better booze, but it will help you make the same booze two batches in a row.
If you wish to use a dephlegmator inside a glass section so that you can see it in action, you can always modify the shotgun concept and have one that drops in. That way the outer shell of the shotgun is also a cooled surface.
Guys, I think this is almost the most informative discussion thread we currently have, I have this bookmarked it , as it really interests me with the electronic control systems, but mostly the reasons plus the how and whys of using each piece of equipment to achieve a desired outcome.
This can only assist all of us to try to understand the mechanics of it all, from the basic boiler controller, to the proposed semi-auto still control unit, up to a made to fit solution for each operator.
I personally thank you all for sharing you knowledge and experience with us, well done.
My contribution to this discussion is limited or nil at most!
+1 @grim. We need a standard solution for each size dragon. Standard valve, standard pump, standard controller, standard length pipes, standard cooling tower model or chiller to cool the condenser water. Trouble is nothing is standard, I have never done a job in my life ever where the pumps and valves and condensers and coolant temps etc were perfectly matched and did not need some other sort of mechanical/electronic intervention in order to trim something, bypass something, adjust something in order to make it work. I think we need to work out the upper and lower limits required for control and design around this, a system that is adjustable for the sweet spot within a wide area of parameters. Sounds hard but in reality I don't think it is, but in order to be successful it has to be repeatable. I order my 4" at the end of this month so my journey will begin then.
@Mickiboi - I appreciate your call, but throw in a couple variables and it can become unwieldy.. cooling water temperature alone can cause a 2-10 fold in water need...
@CothermanDistilling said:
Mickiboi - I appreciate your call, but throw in a couple variables and it can become unwieldy.. cooling water temperature alone can cause a 2-10 fold in water need...
Town water should be easy, I wouldn't think there would be much difference between my water pressure in Adelaide and yours New Jersey or any other town. Might just require a pressure check and see if they need a pressure reducer. Recirc will need a little input from the prospective users but never the less doable.
Anyone that has temperature sensors on your flow and return from your dephleg and you can accurately measure your water usage you can do your own calculations on heat rejection using this formula.
(Cond Out - Cond In) X 4.186 X l/s = kW heat rejection. Very easy formula to apply and use and I would be interested in the figures you get.
Comments
From my reef aquarium days I fell in love with Iwaki and Blueline, both beautiful pumps, fantastic head capacity, and very low power usage.
For most folks, something like a Blueline 40HD would be plenty overkill - 21 feet head, 790gph, and only 120 watts power usage. (Not the HDX, completely different pump). The bigger 55HD would be plenty for even the larger setups, and this is only 1/4 horse.
Otherwise, I've had good results with the Taco 00R 3 speed pumps - this is a plumbing recirc pump that can handle a 21 ft head and 1100gph at zero. The nice thing about this one is that it's got 3 speeds, so you can dial it back as appropriate for smaller setups. It's damn cheap at $80, but you will need to plumb it with flanges (more complex than pushing a hose on) and you will need to wire it with an electrical cord.
I think the challenge is everyone's flow numbers are going to be wildly different, since we aren't standardizing on temperatures, likewise you'll have higher flow requirements to keep the still in 100% reflux, then down collecting heads, then up again as you approach tails. Not to mention differences in condenser efficiency.
Just plugging numbers into the homedistiller condenser calc, which should give us something close to 100% knock down:
Power knock down - flow rate assuming 15c input, and 50c output (all else standard):
Condenser efficiency and geometry is going to play a big role here, so assume in some situations these numbers need to be doubled.
Here are my pumps...
Left to right:
Left to right:
On the bottom are a small(1/2 ton) and large(2-ton) coaxial heat exchangers...
I think the March AC-5B-MD would be a good option for a large still dephleg (8 or 12") using recirc, and that's only 1/8th HP.
Bit of an oops, should have adjusted the output temps lower to approximately 30c, probably a bit more realistic.
Just plumb a bi-pass return back to the rez. Can run the pump balz out and govern flow to the dee-fleg with a 3-way valve........What am I missing here?
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
Also, on the defleg water flow issue. Counter flow will be optimal in terms of knock down but then you have to solve the siphoning issue and will likely always have an air bubble at the top of the depleg unless you engineer a purge to bleed out any remaining air. Perhaps it is a none issue if the dephleg performs regardless?
In put at the bottom with the valve on the discharge side insures that no siphoning occurs and that an air bubble will not occupy the head space within the condenser...Or am I not understanding the discussion?
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
The pump oversized flow problem can be fixed by putting a 2 way ball valve across the pump and feed the discharge straight back to the suction. Also lowers power consumption of the pump. Seen this done in cheapy control systems to keep a constant pressure using a modulating valve, pressure transducer and controller.
Yep @Smaug there are minor issues feeding the dephleg from the top. Air bleed valve on top of the dephleg and raise the discharge pipe just above the inlet to stop drain down.
Missing? Just obsession really. How to design a dephleg. control system that rivals what exists on the german stills.
Manual control works just fine, and the big ass pump approach is easy since you don't have to worry about undersizing, bleed through your bypass and run a valve on the condenser and you can eventually dial it in.
A solenoid based system is good, but a proportional valve can hold condenser temps much more solidly than a solenoid based system can. Less variation means better control, which translates to a more consistent product.
Problem is, you can't use the big ass pump approach with a valve, the valve needs to be sized to the system. And, if you are going to go through the trouble of sizing the valve, you might as well size the pump so the entire package works well together.
Incorrectly size a proportional valve, and you lose controllability over the flow.
If the valve is too small, it ends up living it's life at the high end of the range, from 75-100% open for example, or even worse, it becomes a restriction to flow.
If the valve is too big, the opposite happens, it lives it's life from 0-25% open. Or, even worse, it begins to act like a solenoid because even small opening percentages overwhelm the condenser.
Size it right and the valve uses the full range of 0-100% depending on the situation (or as close to it as possible). Theoretically, this should let you keep temperatures much more stable with much less over and undershoot.
Couple the right valve with a high quality PID controller, now you've got something going. Some of the better controllers can even work to auto-tune the appropriate PID settings such that they can learn how quickly the system responds, and use that to dial in temps even quicker.
Do the legwork to figure out the right combinations, and for the hobby user, you can have a control system that rivals anything out of Germany for a couple hundred bucks. For the pro guys, it's a system that can help you deliver higher levels of product consistency from batch to batch. Now, we know it won't make better booze, but it will help you make the same booze two batches in a row.
That and I'm just obsessive.
If you wish to use a dephlegmator inside a glass section so that you can see it in action, you can always modify the shotgun concept and have one that drops in. That way the outer shell of the shotgun is also a cooled surface.
Just an impression as art is not my strong point.
Guys, I think this is almost the most informative discussion thread we currently have, I have this bookmarked it , as it really interests me with the electronic control systems, but mostly the reasons plus the how and whys of using each piece of equipment to achieve a desired outcome.
This can only assist all of us to try to understand the mechanics of it all, from the basic boiler controller, to the proposed semi-auto still control unit, up to a made to fit solution for each operator.
I personally thank you all for sharing you knowledge and experience with us, well done. My contribution to this discussion is limited or nil at most!
fadge
+1 @grim. We need a standard solution for each size dragon. Standard valve, standard pump, standard controller, standard length pipes, standard cooling tower model or chiller to cool the condenser water. Trouble is nothing is standard, I have never done a job in my life ever where the pumps and valves and condensers and coolant temps etc were perfectly matched and did not need some other sort of mechanical/electronic intervention in order to trim something, bypass something, adjust something in order to make it work. I think we need to work out the upper and lower limits required for control and design around this, a system that is adjustable for the sweet spot within a wide area of parameters. Sounds hard but in reality I don't think it is, but in order to be successful it has to be repeatable. I order my 4" at the end of this month so my journey will begin then.
thanks for the drawing, @myles
and thanks for the good lecture, @grim ;-)
@Mickiboi - I appreciate your call, but throw in a couple variables and it can become unwieldy.. cooling water temperature alone can cause a 2-10 fold in water need...
Yep like I said nothing is standard.
Just ordered a couple larger valves with higher Cv ranges.
I think we can come up with some sizing recommendations for City Water vs Recirc, and for small, medium, and large systems
Town water should be easy, I wouldn't think there would be much difference between my water pressure in Adelaide and yours New Jersey or any other town. Might just require a pressure check and see if they need a pressure reducer. Recirc will need a little input from the prospective users but never the less doable.
Anyone that has temperature sensors on your flow and return from your dephleg and you can accurately measure your water usage you can do your own calculations on heat rejection using this formula.
(Cond Out - Cond In) X 4.186 X l/s = kW heat rejection. Very easy formula to apply and use and I would be interested in the figures you get.