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What's the difference on Elements?

Gentlemen... (and Ladies, and, those who cannot decide :) )

I am looking at my options for heating elements in my new Milk Jug ;) Up till now, I have been a propane man, but the times they are a changin'.

I was looking @ that pretty Camco 5500W 240 Wavy element, but they are hard to source around here...The local plumbing supplier is tellin' me the fold back variant is the same and will perform just as well at half the price... From looking at the PDF on camco's site it's hard to tell if the two Lime Life versions are that much different....

What Say Yee?

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Best Answers

  • The wavy are ULWD vs the single fold are LWD. The ultra low watt density versions are better at avoiding scorching. I use the LWD version in my hot liquor tanks for all grain brewing and ULWD everywhere else. Fleet Farm .com has them for the best price I have seen.

  • @Cambo said: A little off topic, my current project requires that the elements be bent down a little, like 15-20 degrees, does anyone know if that's an issue? Clearly they were bent when they were made, but I didn't know if that would adversely effect them now.

    I have bent my CAMCO wavy 5.5kw elements a bit to open them up a bit in my HLT. I did not have any issues. Theelectricbrewery has pictures of bent camco elements in his kettles.

Answers

  • Only thing I can figure is the simple foldback has a smaller surface area than the rippled (assuming they are both same overall length) thus if both are same watts, then the straight foldback should have slightly higher watt density than the rippled.

  • The Camco 5500W wavy elements are available from Amazon.

  • @EdInNH said: The Camco 5500W wavy elements are available from Amazon.

    Yes sir.. I saw them as well as ones from Ebay... But Mr. Impatient here doesn't want to wait 6-7 days and thus was sourcing locally ....

    Or is this one of those areas where you cannot have enough spares on hand (like fully charged propane bottles)? So it's cool to have a spare set on hand? Looking at the guides, it doesn't appear hard to change them out. However, I am new to this design, so if it's better to not fool with it more than once, thas good information too.

    I am sure the Camco's are MORE durable because most HWH's put into new houses around here are as cheap as they can be - they hardly last 7 years on the local water here... In less than ten years, both units here shot themselves and were brand new to start. One of them needed a new element early on and the plumber that did the work told me the replacement element would outlast the heater twice over...(missus told him to use only the best element as a replacement) - that was a Camco element based upon the invoice...

    I looked around and I don't see a ton of threads on elements wearing out, mostly how to get the most outa them...

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  • A little off topic, my current project requires that the elements be bent down a little, like 15-20 degrees, does anyone know if that's an issue? Clearly they were bent when they were made, but I didn't know if that would adversely effect them now.

  • @Jung said: The wavy are ULWD vs the single fold are LWD. The ultra low watt density versions are better at avoiding scorching. I use the LWD version in my hot liquor tanks for all grain brewing and ULWD everywhere else. Fleet Farm .com has them for the best price I have seen.

    That's what is confusing me from the camco web page.. It's implying the 02923 (fold back) is also UWLD. My local suppliers have the fold back( 02923) but not 02953 (Wavy) . But thanks for the steer about the scorching.

    @Cambo - I'd be careful - those were formed/shaped/bent when they were still being forged and before they were hardened.. I saw the process recently during show on the Science channel (How It's Made) and heating elements were one of the segments... But I am not a metallurgist, just an old geek hippie..

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  • I can bend the ones i have, after all they are only coated copper. Take it easy and you'll be fine if you're just putting deflection in so the don't touch...

    I did have a picture, but can't find it atm.

    Bet $ you can bend em.

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  • I would agree on the copper ones, Punkin.. But the ULWD ones are a stainless alloy(nickel/chromium alloy steel), which made me think it's hardened ?

    And I prefer stainless, which is what endeared me to them in the first place.. I'll spend the coin to get the quality, no worries :) I'm just a kid on Xmas morning over here.. I've plenty of assembly left so it'll probably be fine to just order the wavy's and call it a day and tolerate the wait :) (He says this but tomorrow will head to the plumbing supply in a trance...)

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  • Sounds like you got the gist of it. ULWD v LWD. All it can say is I use the LWD in my boil kettle because I can't get the wavy ones to fit through the fitting. I have done hefeweizens a little over 50% wheat with no scorching, I just clean the element after every brew. Another thing I do is to circulate the wort as it comes up to a boil as my mind tells me this should also help prevent scorching. I have a tangential inlet which is a bonus for circulation, but I'm sure any agitation would help. Hope my brewing experience helps you some...

  • The only remaining fragment of a question I have is the "Reliance" Version from Farm Fleet .com shows it is 86 Watts resistance per Sq Inch, versus 50 Watts for the Camco version. Is that difference not worth considering for the 5 or 6 bucks difference in price? Other than that the units look equal except the bends look tighter on the camco..They are the same alloy of nickel/chromium, But pix are always deceiving ...

    @Grudaire - My previous (first) unit did not have any method to create circulation, so I got some good quality glass marbles, cleaned them good, and then I put those in the wort. I am really looking forward to using a boiler with a drain...! Lifting 10gals of hot (OR cold) backset just plain sucks.

    Thanks to all for the replies.

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  • Marbles, meaning nucleation point? For my current brewery I built tippy dumps and have bottom drains on the hot liquor tank and mash tun. I'm young enough to not really need to worry about lifting kettles full of wort or grain but old enough to start feeling some pains and know I had better design for the future.

  • These elements regardless of the descriptions are all relatively high watt density. The surface temperature is HOT. If scorching is an issue then you really need a power controller.

    I have previously used industrial glycol boilers and power management is always a recomended option. If the wash / mash / thermal fluid is cold then you need to warm up slowly. Apply too much power and the heat can't dissipate and you get localised burning.

    Start slow untill the contents start to circulate by convection and then increase the power.

    Elements tend to burn out because they develop a hot spot. A better option is to use 2 elements instead of one and run each at reduced power. This significantly increases the life expectancy of each one.

  • edited March 2014

    Do the elements have to be fully submerged? In particular the SD ones. I know over the side immersion elements dont have to be fully submerged. I am interested because I want to be able to add an element in the top TC of the SD 120L boiler coming down vertically, however 1/3 of the element is going to be above the liqud.

  • edited March 2014

    Most elements need to be fully submerged, they'll burn out quickly otherwise. I guess you haven't had the luxury of accidentally flipping one on and then walking around wondering what the hell that smell is.

    You might also get some scorching on the exposed portion, it'll be hotter than the unexposed portion, and wash is going to splash up onto it, causing rapid boiling, deposits, etc. If you need more power, you'll probably save money paying for the welding up-front than burning up elements.

    Also, it'll get worse as the run progresses, so even if you were ok at the start, by the time you are in tails I suspect you'll have a lot more exposed unless you have a very wide, squat boiler.

  • @Grudaire - With my first rig (BH PS IIHC w/15 gal kettle) I was told at a forum there needs to be some thing to aid the boil in the boiler...I saw some use broken glass (wtf?), some use the stainless chain that comes with the kit for cleaning, some use copper rings, and others use marbles.

    Gives the boil some interior surfaces to foment on?

    Lifting up that BH kettle is a pain when it's hot and you've just the two narrow ass handles high up on the boiler - hard to keep the center of gravity balanced with sloshing hot backset. So I was delighted to get the milk can with the drain...

    @Myles - Thanks - I was wondering if the difference between 50 vs 86 watts per sq inch was a gnat fart in a hurricane... And yes sir, I learned very early on about heating a wash too quickly.. I'm a creeper when it comes to bringing up a wash temp any more. scrubbing the bottom of the boiler was a cast iron pain in the ass when a wash was scorched from having the flame up too high.

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  • Boiling chips (additional nucleation sites) are typically used in a direct-fire application, I fail to see what value they'd add in an electrically heated scenario where they are located far away from the heat source (as opposed to directly on top). Perhaps some additional agitation, but that seem relatively minor.

  • For reference, I run a Blichmann Gas burner with the PSII HC so it's appropriate, I guess. but I get it, not with the Milk jug w/element & the Dash

    Thanks

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  • Hmm this is interesting to me. I made beer for a decade on direct fire gas and never had any scorching issues or heard of other brewers needing boiling chips. However I have heard of scorching with electric elements which is why I circulate the wort, to avoid hotspots, particularly with high protein beers.

  • I've read about boiling chips from a few other distilling communities in my studies. And it seems there is a lot of diverse opine of use or non-use, what the ideal material is, etc... I think the concept is to provide uneven surfaces for more bubbling within the boiler charge (If I said that right)..

    I've been lucky in that I only hard to clean up one scorch - and that was completely self inflicted at the time..

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  • A friend in Beijing sent me two new Camco 6000 watt elements.
    Yeah doggy, going to be stepping in high cotton now.

  • Hi guys, I'd like to chime in as well, because it fits the topic:

    Which type of electric heating element is suited best for our purpose?

    I don't mean if wavy or not, but considering the type of material it's made of and/or the type of coating/incoloy.

    Asked the other way around:

    Is there any type of electric heating element NOT suited for our purpose?

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