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Yeast Selection

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  • SamSam
    edited August 2020

    I see people elsewhere shop around like mad to get their gear as cheaply as they can from China and the quality is never great.

    I love the StillDragon stuff as the quality is excellent and as you rightly said looks good to boot.

  • It's not an accident. When we talk to the factories they are usually surprised that our major focus is on quality. They are used to overseas customers focusing solely on price.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • We've had our fair share of QC issues, but we always try and make it right.

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  • Try QA 23. A lallamand yeast. used for many aromatic white wines. Very robust and will lift more fruit characters out. Keep cool less than 18 degrees C. Makes some of the best Rieslings in Australia. A little DAP say 200mg/L will ensure you get a clean ferment.

  • edited September 2020

    Fermentis have also released a yeast designed to produce a fruity new make: SafSpirit D-53 (PDF)

    I have some which I am keen to start trialing.

    Ale yeast is becoming more popular here in England, The Cotswold use it, and White Peaks use a spent brewers ale yeast both achieving very good results.

    To give its due, I have used DistillaMax MW before and it does create a slightly fruity fermentation, we have recently been trialing MW with a few wine yeasts with some noticeable results.

  • Thanks @zizther. I am using M1 and USW6 and I like the combination. i will see if I can get d-53.

  • I used the Lallemand Abbaye yeast on my last ferment and it had a really great balance between dark fruit flavours and slight spiciness. At the moment I am fermenting and distilling half a batch with Abbaye and the other half with MW then combining the results for maturation.

    My logic being the Abbaye (or another yeast) has some interesting flavours and the MW adds some more 'traditional' esters, hopefully resulting in a nice rounded whisky at the end of it!

  • @DonMateo what ratio are you using for your M1 and USW6 co-culture and what flavours is it producing?

  • @zizther I am using 50% and 50%. Flavors, hmm.. In my opionion and I just switched over about 3 months ago, its producing some light citrus on the nose, in the taste it keeps the malt grain flavors and gives some peppers, light coffees and caramels. But the flavor it gives varies on the whiskey I am making. I made a couple of rye whiskeys about 2 months ago and it really brought out the coffee and chocolates in the rye and smoked rye with not so much citrus. With my wheats and pale ale multigrains its gives some more of the lighter citrus and fruits. I used to use Llemand EC1118 and DV10 because they were wine yeast and I could get them, but I am a lot happier with the M1 and USW6. I think in the future I might look to change but for now it works.

  • @zizther. For a while I just used M1 and it was good and really gave a more neutral type of only malt grain flavor but didnt give as many nice citrusy notes and coffees caramels in the flavor, so thats why I tried the mix with USW6 and I like mix a lot more than just M1.

  • @DonMateo thanks, it is good to see how others get on with co-cultures.

    I am up for trialing D-53 or an M style yeast with an ale yeast, just need to find out which ones I prefer

  • @zizther. Yes yeast selection is such a huge part and its really personal. I never thought I would ever read a list of yeasts for flavor profiles but I did a while back. There are a couple of red wine yeasts that I was thinking of adding to the mix but I have to get through my lastest batch of runs.

  • Be careful of wine strains that contain a 'Kill Factor"

  • Do people tend to co ferment with multiple yeast strains together in the same fermenter or split the wort up between multiple fermenters and add a single yeast strain to each fermenter?

    To me the latter seems to make more sense as different yeasts work differently at different temperatures. For example the Abbaye strain I am using produces the dark fruit flavours I want at around 18 degrees but the MW produces more flavours at around 30 degrees so fermenting them separately seems to make more sense.

  • @Sam That makes a lot of sense. I'm wondering how many folks would do this?

  • edited September 2020

    Would argue that there might be a difference to distill them differently too, and maybe even age them differently. Blend them at blending time. ;)

  • SamSam
    edited September 2020

    I ferment and distil the batches separately; however, given this is just a hobby I don't have the resources to mature them separately and vat them at the end. Maybe one day...

    One thing I noted is that using the method with 4 plates that @grim mentioned for the Kveik whisky seems to allow more of the yeast generated flavours to stand out, it seems to strip out a lot of the grains flavour though. So I was starting to think about using this method for the half I ferment with craft yeasts and then pot stilling the second batch to get more of the grain flavours.

  • edited October 2020

    Just received the yeast for the two being discussed

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  • @richard, I am now doing offgrain ferments and I am recycling my yeast with fantastic results. This yeast is expensive where I am so I decided to recycle the yeast, ie use yeast from the bottom of the fermenter after racking off the wash. I am saving about a litre or so of yeast residue and using that to start my new washes. I am up to wash number 8 now using the original 20grams of M1 and USW6. Apart from the fact it saves money the ferments are always great and giving great esters, bananas apples and some orange and a little peppers and great flavors too. I highly recommend recycling yeast, I am told you can do it up to 50 times but most yeast experts recommend only up to 10 to 15 times.

  • I use plastic (750ml beer) bottles to save some trub from a completed fermentation. It lasts longer when frozen. I understand that the trub also acts as a yeast nutrient. The trub is somewhat acidic so I also use it to lower the pH if that is needed in the new fermentation.

  • edited January 2021

    @grim said: Would argue that there might be a difference to distill them differently too, and maybe even age them differently. Blend them at blending time. ;)

    This is exactly what Archie Rose is patenting!! They have somehow succeeded in Aus & are now trying to get a global patent.

    Many local distillers such as myself believe that the process in the patent is neither new not innovative. All the ”arts” have been done before, Archie Rose has simply put them together. There are many many articles, videos and forum posts on these subjects going back many years before the claim was lodged.

    The Australian Patent & all associated correspondence can be found here.

    The approved version is here.

    We are further concerned as there’s no definition of what a “roast” malt is. Brewers commonly believe it to be a handful of grains, however maltster have a different view in that “crystal” malts are also considered to be “roasted”.

    Here is a link to the global patent.

    The “claim” can be seen here. It States:

    Claims:

    (1) A method for making a composite alcoholic beverage, the method

    including the steps of:

    a. making a plurality of alcoholic beverages, each of the plurality of alcoholic beverages being made from an individual malt or an individual grain, either separately or together with a base malt or base grain; and,

    b. mixing the plurality of alcoholic beverages to make the composite alcoholic beverage.

    (2) The method of claim 1 , wherein the method of making the composite alcoholic beverage includes the method of making a spirit.

    (3) The method of claim 2, wherein the spirit is a whisky.

    (4) The method of any one of claims 1 to 3, wherein, the individual malt or individual grain is either roasted or unroasted.

    (5) The method of any one of claims 1 to 4, wherein making each of the plurality of alcoholic beverages includes:

    a. brewing the first individual malt, either separately or together with the first base malt in a vessel to create a malt wort;

    b. fermenting the malt wort to create a malt wash;

    c. distilling the malt wash to create a new make; and,

    d. maturing the new make in a cask.

    (6) The method of any one of claims 1 to 5, wherein the method includes determining a predetermined number of alcoholic beverages to make the composite alcoholic beverage.

    (7) The method of claim 6, wherein the method further includes selecting one or more casks from each of the predetermined number of alcoholic beverages to mix to form the composite alcoholic beverage.

    (8) The method of claims 6 or 7, wherein the predetermined number of alcoholic beverages is six alcoholic beverages.

    (9) The method of any one of claims 1 to 8, wherein the method includes bottling the composite alcoholic beverage.

    (10) A composite alcoholic beverage made by the method of any one of claims 1 to 9.

    As you can see this is extremely broad in nature and includes many aspects which are common industry practice that have been used for decades if not centuries. Canadian Whisky is often made like this. Approval of this patent will restrict distillers (anywhere in the world) ability to be creative, innovate with grain bills, production techniques, and blending to produce a saleable product.

    In my opinion it is restrictive to trade. With Free Trade agreements becoming wider, this patent is dangerous to our industry, regardless of jurisdiction.

    As the local patent has been granted, Australian Distillers have a hard battle ahead to try and get it revoked. However the I believe that the international application can still be objected against.

    Because the international patent is so broad in nature and covers so many countries and regions, I felt I needed to draw it to your attention and ask if you are able to circulate the details to your distilling contacts and request them to object to the patent which if approved, will have far reaching impacts on our industry.

  • Hey @crozdog I have been following that on the ADA pages, mainly Crafty & Will Edward's comments. I thought the ADA were getting some advice on the matter in Jan?

    What really surprises me is they said both they and the patent office did their research and the process is novel, yet from what I can see no one knew about the patent application so the consultations cannot have been that thorough. It seems they have snuck this through the back door. My guess is they snuck it through knowing its a weak patent and any industry challenge was likely to succeed.

    The other thing that I can't get my head around is how does this differ from standard blending and vatting practices? I know Will Edwards claims it is different but I can't see how it is.

    I'm guessing that if challenged in court this patent would not hold up to scrutiny, the issue is Archie Rose have deep pockets so can throw money at the problem.

  • Four Roses has been doing this forever...

    Four Roses is the only Bourbon Distillery that combines 5 proprietary yeast strains with two separate mashbills to handcraft 10 distinct Bourbon recipes, each with its own unique character, spiciness, and rich fruity flavors. Up to all 10 recipes are mingled by hand to create Four Roses Bourbon. Six are mingled for Four Roses Small Batch Select Bourbon. Four are mingled for Four Roses Small Batch Bourbon.

  • @crozdog. I just sent this to two different email address in Diageo and Pernod Ricard. If its a problem for us it could be a big problem for them. They also have corporate lawyers and old distilleries that can prove the practice has been going on for hundreds of years. I am going to send it to Bill Owen at the ADI. They have contacts in the US government. Although they are all busy figuring out who will be the next president right now.

  • Diagio owns Johnny Walker who have been blending whiskey since the 1720s. This needs to get in the news and have heaps of bad press for Archie Rose.

  • edited January 2021

    I just sent the application to the Scotch Whiskey Association as well and the ADI. Fingers crossed boys. The Scottish guys are fanatical about defending their industry. Those guys invented blending not the asshole lawyers at Archie Rose. Actually those guys could produce blending records going back 300 years.

  • It strikes me as being to generic to be granted a patent. It reminds me of when McDonald's tried to patent the sandwich making process a number of years ago.

  • I think its bullshit but without a challenge it might just get somewhere.

  • Its not referring to their online app where you can purchase custom blends is it? That was a bit of a novel idea albeit a gimmick.

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