Steam Generator

Smaug

@jbierling said: Yeah, 4” seems small to run solids. Can we get to a system 12>X>4 that can run solids?

Those sizes are a bit over kill for safe measure. The added cost of pipe size increase is really negligible with the reduction of operating cost at this scale

IMO, the smaller system shouldn't run with solids.

Modernity_Column

@Smaug said: Lost?

What does your bottoms HX look like?

80 to 85 degrees Celsius beer feed temp seems ambitious? I'll see where Adam's rig is at. Also, at that feed temp, what are you projecting your low wines abv to be? Without excellant heat recovery capability, I feel like you'll have to throw quite a bit of heat at the system to get your beer preheated to that temp. But then once injected,,,all that newly made heat pushing through the column will work to minimize abv rather than optimize.

Not really sure how much insulation will preserve, recover, and reduce BTU input? But certainly will help.

I was expecting that at 80 degrees C the ethanol would be flashing off as the beer makes its way down the plates. With 14 perf plates in the first column, one of those plates has to be sitting at 80 degrees C? Or would you suggest dropping the incoming beer temp and feeding it in higher up the column?

Smaug

No I would recommend recovering as much heat as possible (and can afford) to get your beer temp as hot as possible so that you can run the system with less BTUs.

Smaug

On the live steam rig, we have an 8" x 72" bottoms HX with something like 30/ 19 mm through tubes and we still have bottoms discharge temps of 110 degrees Celsius. So clearly a good amount of heat is still being dumped.

jbierling

@Smaug said: IMO, the smaller system shouldn't run with solids.

Yeah, 4” seems small to run solids. Can we get to a system 12>X>4 that can run solids?

Smaug

The beer feed needs to be large enough. 1 " is probably the minimum safe diameter imo.

The heat exchangers need to have bigger tubes and therefore a larger shell to compensate for any lost surface area. It just means more $$$ is all.

The tray design for the 4 has the same diameter holes as the big system. And the downcomer is a 1" so I'm comfortable with the trays.

Modernity_Column

@Smaug said: On the live steam rig, we have an 8" x 72" bottoms HX with something like 30/ 19 mm through tubes and we still have bottoms discharge temps of 110 degrees Celsius. So clearly a good amount of heat is still being dumped.

Can I double check this?
Do you mean 110 degrees Celsius / 239 Fahrenheit OR 115 degrees Fahrenheit / 46 degrees Celsius?

Smaug

I mean 230 Farenheit.

Understand that the live steam entry port is located only 152 mm (6") or so above the bottoms discharge port. And that the live steam generates enough heat=pressure to drive out bottoms to the point where a pump is not necessary to push bottoms through the bottoms HX once the entire column is brought to running temp. So by virtue of proximity, bottoms ends up being very hot. Therefore a larger bottoms HX would absolutely benefit.

Similar to product condenser thinking, it can never be too big lol.

But as mentioned, Adam has already reduced operating cost by 30% so that is a win by any standard. It can get better. Just takes money.

His bottoms HX is 8" x 72" with 30/ 19 mm through tubes,,I think? I'll have to check the drawing. But for that design I'll likely recommend enlarging the bottoms HX to a 12" diameter and up sizing the through tubes to insure optimal flow with heavy grain in beer.

Could probably go even bigger to optimize heat recovery even more. But that would be up to the person spending the money to draw the line.. I'm honestly not smart enough to know how to calculate sizing beyond the feedback that we receive after the fact. That feedback is really the operating principle of this forum.

jbierling

@Smaug said: I mean 230 Farenheit.

Enters the HX at 230F or exits? Seems like you’re saying it’s exiting exceeding the boiling point.

jbierling

@Smaug said: The tray design for the 4 has the same diameter holes as the big system. And the downcomer is a 1" so I'm comfortable with the trays.

So what about the 4” causes you to not recommend it for solids?

Smaug

Just needs bigger through tubes than we originally started talking about. Then a bigger shell to insure commensurate amount of surface area for optimal amount of heat recovery.

Yeah so,,,just needs more money. As mentioned on the other thread,, there's no such thing as an HX that's too big lol.

Smaug

@jbierling said: Enters the HX at 230F or exits? Seems like you’re saying it’s exiting exceeding the boiling point.

Ah let me confirm entry or exit with Adam. But remember that there are particulates in the spent beer that will change the boiling point. It's not 100% water.

Smaug

Yep Joel, 230 entry. Adam actually hasn't confirmed exit temps and will do so when he fires on Monday.

My confusion...

CothermanDistilling

thinking that that 230 would do a GREAT job in adding heat to the the doubler if it made a few passes through it... and reducing bottoms temp going into the beer preheater by 20-30 degrees...

Smaug

@CothermanDistilling said: thinking that that 230 would do a GREAT job in adding heat to the the doubler if it made a few passes through it... and reducing bottoms temp going into the beer preheater by 20-30 degrees...

At the moment I can confirm that Adam is only adding heat to the thumper from low wines temps. He initially started with steam to the jacket but ultimately stopped using it.

Smaug

He mentioned to me that a "single wall" is all that's necessary (in retrospect) but maybe he doesn't realize the thumper is also insulated.

Smaug

He was trying to pull product from plates 2 and 3 , but the whiskey was a bit muddled. So I reckon he killed the external heat to the jacked to see if that helped since his initial strategy was to pull a lower proof.

Smaug

As an aside he has disabled the lower plates take off ports and all of the plate drains. Based on his stills behaviors, he now thinks they are not necessary. Certainly helpful in the beginning in order to insure and experiment with the different profiles. But he ultimately concluded that the 4th plate is the sweet spot for whiskey.

Smaug

So back to the thumper,,,if we improve the efficiency of the low wines HX, then perhaps the thumper may indeed require an external heat source,,,,or not? Dunno?

Improving heat recovery out of the low wines HX would still work toward supplying a hotter beer injection temp with less BTUs being introduced at the steam injector. But then it seems logical that those saved BTUs would still have to be added back to the thumper to insure an adequate flash temp of the liquid.

So I'm thinking same size low wines HX to keep thumper temps where they are and just up sizing the bottoms HX.

CothermanDistilling

@Smaug said: At the moment I can confirm that Adam is only adding heat to the thumper from low wines temps.

not sure I understand.. the high temp liquid low wines entering the doubler/thumper are vaporized using what heat source?

Smaug

Parasitic heat coming over from the beer column.

The thermometer on the feed pipe to the thumper shows 170 Farenheit.

CothermanDistilling

I think physics says that 170F liquid is not going to vaporize and go up a column, especially a column with 2 dephlegmators on top of it... heat beyond 170F is required to make whiskey vapor.. there has to be heat coming from somewhere

Smaug

The video shows the entry temps on the thermometer.

I'll see if he can confirm that the thermometer is in good working order.

Smaug

Update on head temps within the thumper.

Looks to be about 190ish.

Smaug

Say @grim, how big is your boiler?

grim

15.6hp or so.