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Hops or not?

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  • edited February 2019

    @CothermanDistilling said: I got a stout(hopless) whiskey coming out of the 15G barrel next month, cannot wait..

    I would love to try some of that.

  • I was just wondering if anyone has tried hopped whisky lately? I was reading Alt Whiskeys and after an early success with one of his smoked whiskeys am really interested in trying out a hopped one.

    From what I read in Bells book there are basically 5 options to hop a whiskey (6 if you were to boil the wort as you would with a beer)

    1. Dry hopping into the fermenter,
    2. Adding to the boiler during the hearts run,
    3. Adding to a carter head,
    4. Dry hopping in the barrel,
    5. Boil the hops and make a hop tea to use to dilute the whisky from cask to bottling strength.

    I recently tried a really nice hopped whisky from a distillery in South Australia at a craft spirit festival, the hops added a really nicely balanced (not over powering) fruity flavour without any real bitterness. Sadly the guy from the distillery was in sales and knew very little about the product (was more interested in flirting with the drunk ladies), he did however say it was a distilled IPA...

    From reading Bells books he does talk about the pros and cons of each option and has a few recipes for each. The main issue seem to be its very easy to get the bitterness come through as the dominant flavour. This is why he seems to steer people away from dry hopping in the fermenter.

    Also with adding them to the boiler he seems to suggest adding them towards the end of the hearts run so the bitterness ends up in the tails.

    I’m curious if anyone has tried adding them to the boiler in this manner and if they have had any success?

    Also I’m curious about using the carter head, do you get the bitterness coming through this way?

    Dry hopping in the barrel probably appeals the least as there is probably more chance of the hops spoiling if not bottled in a dark bottle (I’m speculating here as I have nothing to base that on), plus you could end up with oils in the whisky?

    The tea option would probably give you the best control over flavour as you could boil the hops as you would if making a beer but have total control over the end flavour.

    Anyway, I’m curious if anyone has tried any of these methods and what has worked for them.

  • edited September 2019

    @CothermanDistilling said: I got a stout(hopless) whiskey coming out of the 15G barrel next month, cannot wait...

    Please let us know! I will swing in and grab a bottle if I'm in town

  • edited September 2019

    Smoke has way, way, way more potential than hops do. Hopped whiskey is a one-time impulse buy. Sorry, I am not a fan. Having tried many, I can think of zero situation where I tell myself, I really need a pour of that. My wife made me purge liquor the other day, since I'm spilling over. I'll tell you that it was THE first bottle dumped down the drain.

    Our South Jersey farmer is smoking a ton of rye for us this week, citrus wood. Also inspired by Bell.

    If you really want to go down the botanical route, we recently distilled some gin using stripped rye as a base, and really loved the resulting genever. But, we're very citrus forward, and citrus+whiskey is not a foreign flavor combination for most.

  • @grim, yep citrus pairs exceptionally well with bourbon and rye imo.

    Sturdy enough to not be overwhelmed and yet forgiving enough to allow the citrus to elevate a proper cocktail.

    I can't think of any situation beyond someone buying me a hopped whiskey cocktail, that I would drink any more hopped whiskey than I already have. I've seen enough.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • I think Bells books is certainly inspiring people to challenge conventional whisky styles and methods, the results will always be subjective given everyones palate is unique.

    The hopped whisky I tried (and got a bottle) was very very light on the hops which might be why I liked it, again its a personal taste.

    I read the section on smoking and to be honest it had me breaking out in a cold sweat thinking about trying it at home, I could see myself overdoing the heat and killing all the diastatic enzymes... that said I agree that different smoke would be a fun area to play with.

    Out of interest @grim are you doing your own malting and using the smoke to dry it out or just smoking already malted grain?

    With the hopping the more I think about it the making a ‘tea’ and using that to dilute to bottling proof makes sense as its the only way you would have total control over the flavours (maybe ever scrap it all together if its no good).

  • Mate. Be scientific. Make some clean white dog then try a few different hopping techniques in 1 litre jars, then have a barby with your mates and see hoe many like it or dont. I made a hopped gin once and that was enough for me. It was interesting but nothing more. I thing i poured half of it down the sink.

  • Amazing how better drinks tatse after one or two. :P I think that if you were to do a subjective tatse, you may possibly change your prior assesment. %-(

  • So I couldn't bear it any longer and had to have a nip with my afternoon cup of tea just to see if it was as good as I remember it to be or if indeed I had drunk more than I thought when I first tried it.

    Its as good as I remember... its all in the aftertaste at the back of the palate, very very subtle just a hint of fig and citrus not forward and actually a lovely finish...

    As I said in my first post the guy I spoke to didn't know a lot about it but simply said it was a distillation of the Stone and Wood Pacific Ale. This naturally lead me to assume it would be hopped in some way shape or form, however tasting it again now in the cold light of day without a cigar I would say if it has any hops in it then its very very little if at all.

    I agree the only way I'm going to satisfy my curiosity is to experiment a bit and be as scientific as I can at BBQ's

  • The only times I've had (made) a hopped whiskey was by distilling hopped beers. The Bud Light (an example for the book) was kinda ok, probably because the beer was lightly hopped. Distilling my son's heavily hopped holiday ale, on the other hand, was just nasty.

    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

    my book, Making Fine Spirits

  • I distilled a couple of kegs of XPA a while back. I wasn't a fan. let me leave it at that ;)

  • edited October 2019

    Sure, lots of things can work as subtle contributors. But given the current trend in American beer, have a hard time believing anything using hops is going to be subtle.

    All that said, we do an IPA cask finished bourbon in collaboration with a local brewery that’s awesome. The end result is not anything that even resembles hops or hoppy. If it wasn’t on the label, you’d swear someone rimmed the glass with citrus peel.

    Again though, it’s the citrus that’s the primary flavor contributor, it’s a flavor profile that pairs well. The secondary fermentation esters are probably the second most important - tropical fruit - subtle but it works incredibly well.

    It’s possible to make a good hopped whiskey, but I am going to bet money that to get there, you are going to be right on the edge of perception. Leaving tasters to question what it is they are tasting. Putting IPA or Hops on the label - pure marketing.

  • Have a taste of the Stone and Wood. It's not a hoppy beer to my tastes.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • @Tunstal said: Please let us know! I will swing in and grab a bottle if I'm in town

    got it on the shelf, it is awesome...

    Just saw an ad for crown royal mesquite... Is this what it is going to take to get more small Whiskey makers to use smoke of alternative woods in whiskey?

  • Can you set aside a bottle for me? I'm getting on an airplane tonight and am gone for two weeks - back the 25th!

  • @CothermanDistilling said: got it on the shelf, it is awesome...

    Can you set aside a bottle for me? I'm getting on an airplane tonight and am gone for two weeks - back the 25th!

  • @Tunstal said: Can you set aside a bottle for me? I'm getting on an airplane tonight and am gone for two weeks - back the 25th!

    PM me your info and I will set one aside..

  • So I've finally got to the point where I feel comfortable giving hopped whisky a go. I don't really know what to expect but that's half the fun.

    I know a lot of people are against hopped whisky and possibly I will be too after this!

    What I'm thinking is to give Darek Bells Rasputin a go. In his book he puts the hops in a gin basket and I'm wondering is it best to put these in after the heads phase or at the start of the run so any of the heavier flavours come out in the heads.

    I had thought of dry hopping in the fermenter after the grain cap falls or putting them in the boiler during the stripping run but think these may cause more bitterness than the Carter Head.

  • edited May 2020

    Distilled 600 gallons of Double IPA two weeks ago, awful. Whiskey that smells like a sloppy drunk hipster that hasn't showered.

    I hear Rasputin was a homeless man at one point, so maybe the name is appropriate.

  • @grim he was also allegedly having an affair with Tsarina Alexandra of Russia and be impossible to kill... maybe there is something to it after all.

    Also if nothing else Boney M sang a great song about him.

  • I just distilled 100l of a hopped scotch ale. Horrible result. Tasted like an alcoholic citrus hop vodka with some artifical whiskey flavors added. But the beer had just gone off and the brewer wanted to see what it was like. I am sure he hated the result.

  • I previously distilled a couple of kegs of XPA. Never again. If it was something that is barely hopped eg a kolsch, I'd think about it, but hoppy beers, NO.

    @Sam agree that you don't dry hop or add hops to the boiler. IMO treat it like a gin ie run the wash & make good cuts then re-run it with the carter head attached & filled with your hops. That way no aromatics will be lost to cuts (unless you choose to do some). This is how i've been planning to try it, but haven't got it off the to do list yet. What hops are you thinking of trying?

  • edited May 2020

    I mean, maybe like 1 or 2 hop cones in the small gin basket when running a gin. Something less skunky like Citra.

  • Seconding @crozdog here. I've distilled two hopped beers, one fully hopped holiday ale of my son's, and one of Bud Light with typical American pisslager hopping, as kind of a anti-demonstration for the book. The Bud Light distillate maybe was bearable. The holiday ale was awful,

    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

    my book, Making Fine Spirits

  • @grim said: I mean, maybe like 1 or 2 hop cones in the small gin basket when running a gin. Something less skunky like Citra.

    Ciara is like cilantro. Some people love it some hate it. To me anything with Citra smells like Cat Piss.

  • I like Myrcene - citra is among the highest myrcene content

  • @crozdog I started by ordering what Bell listed in his book for the Rasputin Imperial Stout (Chinook, East Kent Golding & Liberty). After a few to many glasses of wine though I got back online and now I have the following...

    • East Kent Golding
    • Chinook
    • Liberty
    • Wai-iti
    • Enigma
    • HPA-016
    • Galaxy
    • Ella
    • Topaz
    • Astra

    My logic is that I wanted to go with lower alpha acids to reduce bitterness and increase fruitiness. The one I’m really after is stone fruit flavours.

    Once I woke up sober and realised I had so many hops on the way I figured I will try to do some small trials with neutral in my little air still to work out which ones I like and what dose it use them in (Per LAL).

    I figured that if I’m going to do it I should do a bit of research.

    Any suggestions on Grams per LAL would be appreciated

  • some nice hops there. If making gin, I'd use 10-20g juniper /l of 40%. As the hops can be quite dominant & I'm guessing you're after a subtle effect, I'd think starting at a lower ratio eg 1-2g/l would be wise.

    I'd be tempted to do single hop vapour runs using neutral to get tinctures of each variety then add them drop by drop to a measured sample of your whisky until you get to your desired flavour. you can then work out the ratio if you wish to then do a vapour infusion run.

    doing it that way also allows you to experiment with hop blends on a small scale before committing to a bigger run

  • @crozdog thanks mate, I was planning on trying them out on on some neutral but I hadn't thought about adding that to the whisky. Sounds like a good way to go.

    Thanks for the suggested starting point of 1-2g/L

    I will let you know how it goes.

  • When I did my hopped gin I was about .5 grams per litre but it really depends on the hops.

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