Steam Mash Tun

FloridaCracker

Well the carnage wasn't bad at all; looks like the only thing damaged was all of the gaskets. Cheapest parts so I am happy (somewhat). The element looks no worse for wear.

Looking for suggestions on what to put on these SS parts to make them purdee again.

Gonna get a 12"x4" spool to put in place of the furthest reducer. That should end the clearance issues with the element and gain me additional reservoir space. I would get the 20" one but it won't fit. I am also going to add a 2"x4" addition between the reservoir and the kettle to give me more distance between the two; Mike's idea.

If I get my parts by mid-week I should know something then. Fingers crossed.

FloridaCracker

Well, I wish I had better news to report but this type of steam setup isn't going to work. I believe that the reservoir area is too small but that is just a guess. I have been through 4 elements so far and it just isn't working. Thought I had it dicked last night when everything seemed to work fine as long as I didn't exceed 70% on my controller.

Started a nice mash in 75 degree water with some enzymes (70% corn, 15% wheat, 15% oats). Got up to 122F when the latest element gave way. There is plenty of water covering it. Said Fuck It and fired up the propane burner. 3 hours later I was at 190 so I considered that a victory.

I almost think that it will take 2 elements and a larger tank to make this feasible. With my latest setup I had over 1 gallon of water in the reservoir and the element was submerged at least an inch. I was on schedule for a 4 hour heatup time which is totally unacceptable. Instead it took 6 hours between the two heat sources and a trip to Lowes to pick up a plug for the bottom of the kettle. Maybe if the reservoir/element was mounted vertically that might work. Who knows.

Not sure where I go from here. The pressure never got above 5psi with the element and 7 with the burner. The kettle has 33 gallons of water and 80lbs of grain. Waiting for the 190 degree rest right now and will test for starches.

Thoughts?

Smaug

In retrospect I agree that your reservoir is too small. seems like you don't have enough liquid to keep the elements covered. I'd also like to see a bit more room for 2 way traffic (steam up/liquid down) flow. I can't help but to think that pressure may be obstructing optimal liquid return.

Thanks for taking the hit for the team.

CothermanDistilling

agree that the path has to be dual flow if there is not a liquid trap...

I can let you borrow one of our uni-keggles, the elements can stay submerged under a foot of water and you can use a copper line or maybe a gas line to the kettle inlet... we might think about a condensate trap if line has a low spot.. or use a smaller line to blow it all the way in...

and try reversing ports, put steam in the side and let the bottom be the outlet right into a bucket of water that is the steam trap and back-pressure device...

thinking back to boulder distilling in '08 or so, they had the steam generator keggles on their side on the floor, and the stills with the steam coils in them were 3-4' off the ground.... thinking now that was not by happenstance

FloridaCracker

I'm thinking of maybe increasing the bottom opening to 2" with a long ferrule welded to the bottom of the jacket. That would probably be the easiest on the wallet right now. Should really increase steam and return condensation movement.

One note, on the last 3 attempts, I used a normal 5500w element instead of a ULWD. Half the price but maybe not what I need.

hudsonbaydistiller

that's why i was thinking of using that stainless canister and opening the bottom of the kettle jacket , the canister is big enough for 2 vertical elements . im still waiting on a tig welder lol

grim

If you think the dual flow is a problem, why not try what I posted a while back, before going through the work of getting a ferrule welded.

The keg approach sounds a whole lot more interesting now. Big headspace means that the steam coming off the top is not mixed with water. It really sounds like this is the problem, it's like it's boiling over, up, and in the jacket. Exposing too much of the element.

CothermanDistilling

^^^ this...

in that arrangement, you see the steam will enter the top... I think this is the way to do it that will solve your problem...

here is a brochure with a diagram of a boiler, the picture on the first page is worth a thousand words... (edit: and on the third page, your kettle is clearly shown!)

Steam Traps (PDF)

FloridaCracker

@grim said: If you think the dual flow is a problem, why not try what I posted a while back, before going through the work of getting a ferrule welded.

The keg approach sounds a whole lot more interesting now. Big headspace means that the steam coming off the top is not mixed with water. It really sounds like this is the problem, it's like it's boiling over, up, and in the jacket. Exposing too much of the element.

Thanks for all of the input you guys.

The problem I have is that I only have a small amount of room below the kettle to work with. I'm away from home right now or I would measure it. I do know that I don't have room for the element housing to be vertical under the kettle.

FloridaCracker

@Smaug said: Found this that also explains a bit differently than Grim:

Air in Steam Systems

Air can be just as insidious and potentially dangerous as condensate to the proper operation of a steam heating system. However, in a properly designed system, air can be controlled and for the most part eliminated. Air in a system cannot be totally avoided. It is a natural byproduct of steam generation. It is present during equipment startup and is often found in boiler feedwater. Air and other non-condensable gases can serve as insulators between the steam and the coil surface, thereby decreasing efficiency. Worse, dissolved carbon dioxide and oxygen in condensate form a corrosive carbonic acid that can eat through pipes and tubes. Therefore, it is just as important to remove the air from the system, as it is to remove the condensate. While the thermostatic air vents that are integral to float and thermostatic steam traps work well to remove air and other non-condensables, it is advisable to install auxiliary air vents with steam coils and kettles. The recommended location for an auxiliary air vent is on the condensate line at the top of a riser located 12 to 18 in. above the bottom of the coil, before the steam trap. In systems that operate at pressures lower than 15 psig the outlet of the air vent should be piped to the condensate return. A thermostatic air vent thus improves heat transfer while saving energy, reduces corrosion and maintenance costs, and promotes even heating in the coil, by removing incondensable gases from steam systems. A lot of times the cooks in the production area will wonder why their kettles are not heating up very fast, so either one of them or an uninformed mechanic, will assume the trap is not working so they will open the y-strainer valve and just let that valuable precious hot pure clean condensate run all over the floor and down the drain. Not only are they wasting large sums of money by doing this but they are adding to their humidity which is probably already high enough. Did they even check the strainer and the trap? Right here is a good place to mention to all you design engineers that do not have to physically work on these steam traps, to at least locate them where a mechanic can at least get to them. I have seen traps located under kettles that no one would want to work on, so why put them in such of an out of the way place. That is ludicrous design engineering. But anyway, if they are having temperature problems with the kettles, it could be trapped air in the kettle jacket. Thermostatic air vents should be used on the kettle jacket to eject entrapped air but they must be high up on the high points in the jacket for them to work properly. Air actually sets up a barrier between the steam and the steam jacket, and air produces excellent insulating properties which reduces your heat transfer. It takes very little air in a steam system to drastically reduce heating efficiencies of the steam. If everyone, engineering, maintenance, and management, would all re-read this important section and work together on this, many dollars could be saved in wasted heat going down the drain, plus the kettles would be working at top production efficiency.

I think that this was a large part of my problem on heat up; Whenever I opened up the vent to try and purge the air, the pressure obviously dropped and heat was lost. The top part of the jacket never got very hot, ie never saw steam. I attributed it to the fact that the steam was condensing before it got to the top vent . The only thing I got out of the ball valve was cold air, never steam. It just didn't make it that far.

CothermanDistilling

needle valve that releases slower than steam is generated...

I think you had steam trying to go up through the bottom port and water trying to come down through the same port... steam wins, and water does not stay covering element... from the looks of the other drawings I see, the steam is supposed to go in the side and water out the bottom...

move the chamber to the side of the kettle... chamber can be on its side, but have the water enter the chamber from the bottom and steam escape from the top and to the side of the kettle

grim

You only need to purge air at startup.

grim

Also, rubber steam hose is a consideration.

FloridaCracker

Yes, I believe that the steam kept the condensate from returning.

IF I increase the size of the bottom drain, theoretically there would be enough room for two way travel and the steam couldn't overpower the returning condensate, right?

Not sure if all of you guys realize that I am just a hobby 'stiller and I won't be running this system too often so I am somewhat limited on what I can justify in experimentation. If I can make it all happen from the bottom I need to try that first. 2"? 3"? I would really like to utilize the parts that I have already bought as well. I'm into shiny parts for over $400. Having a triclamp ferrule welded to the bottom would be pretty easy and relatively cheap.

Also, this is a tilt kettle so I have to keep that in mind as all of this stuff needs to move and clear the support legs. Another reason I would like to keep it all under the bottom.

hudsonbaydistiller

FC is there any chance you can move stops on the tilt mechanism so the kettle dumps toward middle leg and then your elements would have more clearance . if you could that would help .

tim

FloridaCracker

HBD, it wouldn't work because of the spout that is on it. Luckily I think that the drain (for contents) is big enough that the mash should come out and I won't have to tilt it.

I guess I am hard-headed and refuse to believe that the "everything underneath" approach won't work. I know that steam in from the side would be a lot better but I am determined to make the parts that I have invested in work. Having a 2" bottom inlet/outlet won't hurt no matter what I do in the future and will only cost me $14 for a 2" triclamp pipe that I will cut off one end. That and whatever the welding cost.

The GOOD news is that I am not throwing in the towel on this. I WILL make it work and maybe the next guy will have it a little easier. I have stolen more ideas than I have shared from forums, including this one so I hope this will help.

Smaug

Well for what it's worth,,, "everything underneath" does work....

hudsonbaydistiller

FC glad your not giving up because i am the next guy lol . our biggest problem with experimenting is the 3 weeks it takes to get any parts , and i can only get so creative with the parts i have on hand . this is a very cool thread you have created , really enjoying it .

tim

grim

Lemme know what parts you need, I have a ton of triclamp parts. I have a 4" long ferrule sitting here if you want to try something a bit bigger. I also have some very heavy 2" threaded triclamp adapters that are like tanks. If you, or your welder, hate working with the thinner wall stuff, these would weld easily. I know the Groan tanks are pretty damn thick too.

hudsonbaydistiller

i had a 8x4 StillDragon reducer welded on to my lid , the guy that welded it said it was piece of cake to weld even tho the lid is quite thin . never even warped the lid . not sure exactly how thick it is compared to the steam jacket but it is way thinner . i dont think you will have any problem welding a ferrel on.

FloridaCracker

Wow. Every time I see welds like that I want to cry!

Smaug

FC can you call me. 954 298 9505

hudsonbaydistiller

now why would you cry is that a shitty weld

Smaug

@hudsonbaydistiller said: now why would you cry is that a shitty weld

Ha! No the polar opposite.

CothermanDistilling

@FloridaCracker said: Wow. Every time I see welds like that I want to cry!

Come on over, bring your kettle, lets hook it up to a uni-keggle set up as remote steam generator to test it's heating potential by heating water... and if it doesn't work, we can TIG weld a ferrule on it...

FloridaCracker

@hudsonbaydistiller said: now why would you cry is that a shitty weld

The reason I would cry is because I can't weld anything like that no matter how I try!

hudsonbaydistiller

oh have no fear i cant either my welds look like birds shit out hot steel , some day maybe lol i ll get better .

FloridaCracker

OK, @Smaug and I have decided that I should put a 3" ferrule on the bottom of the kettle. That should take the two way traffic issue out of the equation.

On another front, today I am stripping my first AG that I did in the kettle. Stay tuned.....

FloridaCracker

I believe we have success!

Welded on a 3" ferrule to the kettle and increased the size of the reservoir to 6". More than doubled the water volume to 2 1/2 gallons. So far I have only tested it for about 1 hour and it seems to be working great. I will report back after I do my next AG mash as to how long it takes to heat up completely.

Smaug

Welp,,,,looks pretty snappy.