Steam Mash Tun

FloridaCracker

The way I see it, there are a lot of points that I would see that would possibly fail way before a tri-clamp. Another quick question, what kind of water are you guys using in your steam systems? I've heard that distilled water can become corrosive

Smaug

You'll not have any issues there FC. I reckon you'll not be using not much more than a gallon. Easy to drain after each run. So really no time to get corrosive.

grim

Use the wet stuff, I'm sick of the solid kind we got up here in the northeast. Distilled is fine, tap is fine, don't matter.

FloridaCracker

@Smaug said: You'll not have any issues there FC. I reckon you'll not be using not much more than a gallon. Easy to drain after each run. So really no time to get corrosive.

50oz to get the element covered. Firing it up tomorrow. Stay tuned. If I don't report back, check local hospitals, lol.

On another front, I found a grain grinder on OfferUp that is working perfect for corn. Will take about 30 minutes to knock out a 50lb bag of cracked corn. Might possibly do my first AG tomorrow. Pumped! Pictures tomorrow and hopefully a report.

hudsonbaydistiller

fc the suspense is killing me

Smaug

No pics,,,never happened.

FloridaCracker

@Smaug said: No pics,,,never happened.

Your wish is my command...

Here's the completed setup for now. Tested with only 5 gallons in the kettle and learned that if the gaskets aren't installed correctly, the steam eats them up. This is what trials are for.

FloridaCracker

Ready to run

FloridaCracker

One more

hudsonbaydistiller

very cool FC once you do all the math on your kettle like power and heat up time i can use your numbers on mine jus half the amount cuz mine is only 30 gallon . thanks for being the pioneer on this project .

tim

Smaug

Looks good. So for the kettle heat up times, we reckon 70 watts per liter for a one hour heat up.

How does that extrapolate toward your volume/heat input? Are you also going to preheat some strike water?

FloridaCracker

@Smaug said: Looks good. So for the kettle heat up times, we reckon 70 watts per liter for a one hour heat up.

How does that extrapolate toward your volume/heat input? Are you also going to preheat some strike water?

I had planned on doing the corn ala Pint O Shine by adding the corn to cold water, then adding the first enzyme to keep things thin. Adding the second enzyme after cooking the corn at 190 then bringing it back to 150.

That WAS the plan....

However the first attempt went tits up.

First I roasted the 6500 ULWD element. Think that there wasn't enough water to keep it covered. I then stole a 5500 ULWD element out of my still and cranked it back up with 10 gallons in the kettle to see how it heated up. Well, it heated up just fine. Problem was the element was too close to the inside of the 4x2 reducer and was arcing. I noticed this when the reducer was cherry red. I quickly shut it down about the time that the o ring caught fire. About a minute later the o ring gave out and the steam escaped.

Lessons learned:

1.There needs to be PLENTY of clearance between the ripple element and the inside of the housing. 2. The SS parts aren't nearly as pretty once they have almost melted. 3. Burning o rings don't smell as good as I thought they would have. 4. Going to need more parts before I can continue.

FloridaCracker

I'm thinking I will replace the burnt reducer with a 4x12" pipe. More reservoir area and no danger of the element hitting it.

Thoughts?

The water was heating up pretty good before the shit went bad so I think I am on the right track. Didn't get a chance to build any pressure either so that hopefully will help the heatup.

grim

How the f@ck did that arc like that. I’ve had straight elements in 2” spool and they never arced.

FloridaCracker

The tip of the element was VERY close to the 2" cap. This is how I know it was arcing; I could see the flash THROUGH the SS cap. Talk about a wake up call! I had to straighten the element a little to get it through the reducer. I should have known that it was too close

dad

50 oz of water? I wonder if there was any water around the element when it arced do to cavitation.

I would restart with a lot more water and smaller element (less power). I doubt you need 3,000 watts to boil/steam 50oz of water. Once the water is over 212F it takes almost nothing to keep it above or build three to five psi.

I have 10gallons in an 18 gallon jacket with three 5,500watt elements. I ramp up with 10% power for ten minutes to reduce cavitation around the element and go to 80%. I have three psi in another 10 minutes and start to back down to about 40% power as the charge heats up. 40% to 50% power keeps me between two and three psi. So, approx 8,000watts gets me three psi with 10gallons of water. 50 gallon charge gets to 170F in about 80 minutes.

I could do all this with one 5,500watt element in just a little more time.

I know there is a lot of interpolation there but 5,500watts in a 50oz of water sounds like a thin margin for error.

How much water/power was in the keg steam boilers like punkin had?

punkin

I used to put 20-30l in mine but it was a different animal and ran on gas.

richard

Just thinking out the box a bit....... can you not drop the rims tube further down so as to give you a bigger well / reservoir. But also do some form of feed column with water inlet float so that as the level drops so the water is fed in.

FloridaCracker

@dad said: 50 oz of water? I wonder if there was any water around the element when it arced do to cavitation.

I would restart with a lot more water and smaller element (less power). I doubt you need 3,000 watts to boil/steam 50oz of water. Once the water is over 212F it takes almost nothing to keep it above or build three to five psi.

I have 10gallons in an 18 gallon jacket with three 5,500watt elements. I ramp up with 10% power for ten minutes to reduce cavitation around the element and go to 80%. I have three psi in another 10 minutes and start to back down to about 40% power as the charge heats up. 40% to 50% power keeps me between two and three psi. So, approx 8,000watts gets me three psi with 10gallons of water. 50 gallon charge gets to 170F in about 80 minutes.

I could do all this with one 5,500watt element in just a little more time.

I know there is a lot of interpolation there but 5,500watts in a 50oz of water sounds like a thin margin for error.

How much water/power was in the keg steam boilers like punkin had?

After thinking about all of this, I am pretty sure that when the ripple element fully heated up it probably expanded enough to have hit the cap. Oh well, won't make that mistake again

grim

@dad said: I would restart with a lot more water and smaller element (less power). I doubt you need 3,000 watts to boil/steam 50oz of water. Once the water is over 212F it takes almost nothing to keep it above or build three to five psi.

You can't cheat physics, power input is power input, BTU is BTU. This would result in a 4 hour heat up.

If you can maintain 3-5psi with 3000w, the issue is that you have incredibly poor heat transfer through the kettle wall. However, I suspect this is not the case. For this Groan kettle, it can consume significantly more power, just looking through the Groan specs, at 12psi this can utilize 200lb/hr of steam, that's roughly 56,000 watts equivalent, which is about 20 minutes to boil.

grim

That's a beautiful kettle BTW, that's in great shape. You clean it up? Because that thing looks absolutely mint.

dad

FC, I love your kettle!

But the steam kettle will never be quicker than a direct element. Beauty is it won't scorch!

@grim said: Just keep in mind, 6500 watts, about 85% efficiency - you are talking about 2-3 hours to bring a full mash to boil.

I calculate 211 minutes at 100% efficiency (6,500 direct element).

The difference between 0psi and 14psi (1bar) is water at 212F or steam at 250F.

We want steam to fill the ban marie jacket for max contact/transfer/efficiency. So now you look at the temp of the steam for time. Steam at ~14psi = 250F. Steam at ~5psi = 228F.

I know this isn't exactly right, but, 5psi it will take ~11% longer (228F vs 250F) to boil the mash than at 14psi. I don't know how long! But at least 15% longer.

At either 5psi or 14psi nothing will scorch. So, consider, is the pucker factor at 14psi vs 5psi worth 15min?

Remember the point isn't quicker, it's no scorch!

Seriously, it'll cost $8usd to put a 3,000watt element in it and try it.

Punkin brought up the best time saving idea. Boil 30 gallons of water with a direct element, before you start the steam and add your grain.

CothermanDistilling

I say yes, a short or bell 4x2 reducer and 4" tube will work better, and place them as low as possible to keep the water wanting to stay low, if you can put a 2" TC spool, say 4-6" long on the bottom above your 4x4x2 Tee, do it, it will let the water dual-path down past the vapor better...... if yer up for a drive, I have element, 2x4 bell, and short spools... ;-) and rum, lots and lots of rum!

FloridaCracker

@grim said: That's a beautiful kettle BTW, that's in great shape. You clean it up? Because that thing looks absolutely mint.

It was manufactured in 1967 and was in really nice condition when I got it. I cleaned it up and replaced the piping. The gears on the tilt were rusted and seized up so I got that all working again as well.

Dad, I don't plan on heating the strike water because I will be doing mostly corn and need to thin with enzymes before gelatinization . I am going to be fermenting in this as well.

hudsonbaydistiller

FC shitty deal on the melt down . i was thinking about changing my build from canister to a set up like urs jus to save some tig welding . jury is still out wich way i ll go lol

tim

Smaug

Just need to find that sweet spot with respect to clearances.

Thanks for taking one for the team...

FloridaCracker

@Smaug said: Just need to find that sweet spot with respect to clearances.

Thanks for taking one for the team...

No problem. At least with the advice I have been getting I have an idea on where to go from here. Haven't had the heart to open it and survey the damage yet, that will be later today. Look for another order to hit your e-mail either today or tomorrow. I feel pretty good about the next attempt.

FloridaCracker

@CothermanDistilling said: I say yes, a short or bell 4x2 reducer and 4" tube will work better, and place them as low as possible to keep the water wanting to stay low, if you can put a 2" TC spool, say 4-6" long on the bottom above your 4x4x2 Tee, do it, it will let the water dual-path down past the vapor better...... if yer up for a drive, I have element, 2x4 bell, and short spools... ;-) and rum, lots and lots of rum!

Thanks. I WILL get by there in the near future. Gotta see how that dunder has been treating you!

hudsonbaydistiller

FC how big is the fitting going into the bottom of the kettle .

FloridaCracker

3/4" OD