Steam Mash Tun

grim

The issue is that you can't plumb it like a traditional steam system. Well, you could, but you would need a condensate pump.

This is how a steam kettle would typically be plumbed for steam.

How to Trap Jacketed Kettles (PDF)

Plumbing as a one-pipe system will work, is slightly less efficient. Most critical - this will only work with gravity drain.

CothermanDistilling

I say a total loss steam system, a keggle with 1-4 element guards , a level switch, and plumb it into the kettle and then out via a hose into a bucket with 2' or water... 1psi steam... just don't put a valve anywhere on it and you are safe...

crank the shit out of the heat on the keggle, the kettle will warm up... I saw a production distillery in boulder using of these setups... at once on 6 or 7 individual stills dripping 190...

punkin

Rims seems much simpler and safer.

Smaug

Just need to make sure piping allows for 2 way traffic flow I would think?

grim

On a total loss steam system, you'll need a trap. The trap can just drain to a hose though.

On 5kw, I would think that 3/4" is more than sufficient. Condensate flow would be roughly .03 gallons per minute, 2 gallons per hour.

I mean, that thing is going to take 3 hours to get to near boiling on 5kw (50g, 75-195f). If you increase to 3x the power (15kw), we are getting a little bit narrow. In that case, perhaps use a top port and the drain port simultaneously (although steam will use both ports to move, but condensate only the bottom port).

But don't think you can use a trap in the rims boiler scenario without a condensate pump, you'll need a pressure pump to get the condensate back into the boiler if that's the case (with a pump that can overcome the boiler pressure).

CothermanDistilling

The 'trap' they used at Boulder Distilling was a bucket of water with the hose stuck in it a certain depth.. 1 foot gives .5psi, 2' gives 1 psi resistance, shove steam in too fast and it just bubbles into the water.. super easy and cheap to give it a shot..

We came up with a 3-element version of my 'uni-Keggle' that had this capability in mind UK v2 ( either for direct injection of steam, or also use as a 16.5kw 3-phase 'external RIMS tank' for heating a 350gal tote of rum wash): 8" TC in the top and 4 2" TC fittings, 3 at the bottom carefully welded in to allow 3 camco wavy elements to exist in the lower third of the tank and a drain...

we getting ready to build UK v3 now, it will have the 8" fitting on the top and 5 1.5" fittings for 3 elements, a low-level gauge and a drain. We are looking at 1.5" to fit these elements from brewer hardware (brewer, not brewers) that don't even need an element adapter... unless someone makes a 2" version... ;-)

gixxerpilot750

Cotherman, check out the dernord elements on amazon. You should be able to get a similar 1.5” tc element for under $40.

CothermanDistilling

They have ones you plug a L6-30 or similar directly to? I have not seen them, I have seen the ones you have to wire and then protect the wiring on...

gixxerpilot750

Dernord 240V 5500W Tri-clamp Ripple Heating Element Stainless Steel Immersion Water Heater with 3-Wire Electrical Locking Plug (1.5 Inch Tri clamp) @ Amazon

richard

I am having super, super low density elements made up for me. I am working on a 2" tri-clover connection, is 6 KW total (2 KW per phase or leg). The problem with all these other elements are that they are not low density e.g. CAMCO etc.

DonMateo

Richard, I have the Denord triclamp elements and they are really good. I have the 5.5kw elements with the 2" triclamp fitting.
They work perfectly with the triclamp fittings.

CothermanDistilling

@gixxerpilot750 - 2", nice... even at $60... thanks

@richard - Camco 'lime life' is in fact ULWD (Ultra Low Watt Density) maybe not as low as yours, but it is water to make steam we are dealing with in this case... another discussion here on them:

What's the difference on Elements?

FloridaCracker

Would this work?

Smaug

Conceptually I think so. I would think that a 2" ferrule/port would allow for good flow in both directions.

What volume is the pot?

35 watts per liter = 2 hour heat up

70 watts per liter=1 hour heat up,,,,and so forth and so on....

grim

Or, setup the jacket for cooling and use direct steam injection to cook.

hudsonbaydistiller

FC thats exactly what i was thinking except i was thinking of welding a canister on the bottom going up and down and putting 2 elements in tit . the bottom of the water jacket will have to be cut open bigger to allow good circulation , the bottom port on ours is only half inch .

if i can hide from wife long enough today...(every night she all excited what did you get done today ...hows the new place coming bla bla bla , some days i jus dont have the heart to tell her i didn't accomplish shit all day so i lie and tell her im working on the dihydrogen monoxide system and she happy )

i ll take some time off working on the distillery and do a mock up and post a pic . i drained the oil out of the jacket and let it drip over night . jacket holds 4 gallons and the canister i have in mind is about 2 gallons so im thinking 3 gallons of water the rest is steam . tim

grim

Any portion of the jacket in contact with boiling water will have significantly reduced heat transfer compared to steam only.

Boiling in the jacket is less efficient than boiling outside of the jacket, and only sending steam in, and taking condensate out.

No air vent? Without an air vent, any space in the jacket occupied by air, can not be occupied by steam. This also significantly reduces heat transfer and efficiency.

hudsonbaydistiller

ok i got quick pic of what im thinking , the canister has to be welded on and element fittings added maybe even add a drain and thermometer port i dunno . any ideas would be great . and of course i will cut it down as short as possible for elements to fit in , havent decided on that length yet.

grim

That'll work just fine. Just be sure you aren't adding too much water volume. If your elements are coming up from the bottom (not enough diameter), use shorter, high watt density elements. No sense using any kind of low watt density heater here, otherwise you just waste space and add unnecessary volume.

Smaug

Yes keep as much liquid out of the jacket as possible. Here I show a Tee section incorporated to enlarge the reservoir.

A simple ball valve to bleed out air during heat up Grim?

grim

2” sightglass between the kettle and heater.

Otherwise, that’s perfect.

Smaug

Found this that also explains a bit differently than Grim:

Air in Steam Systems

Air can be just as insidious and potentially dangerous as condensate to the proper operation of a steam heating system. However, in a properly designed system, air can be controlled and for the most part eliminated. Air in a system cannot be totally avoided. It is a natural byproduct of steam generation. It is present during equipment startup and is often found in boiler feedwater. Air and other non-condensable gases can serve as insulators between the steam and the coil surface, thereby decreasing efficiency. Worse, dissolved carbon dioxide and oxygen in condensate form a corrosive carbonic acid that can eat through pipes and tubes. Therefore, it is just as important to remove the air from the system, as it is to remove the condensate. While the thermostatic air vents that are integral to float and thermostatic steam traps work well to remove air and other non-condensables, it is advisable to install auxiliary air vents with steam coils and kettles. The recommended location for an auxiliary air vent is on the condensate line at the top of a riser located 12 to 18 in. above the bottom of the coil, before the steam trap. In systems that operate at pressures lower than 15 psig the outlet of the air vent should be piped to the condensate return. A thermostatic air vent thus improves heat transfer while saving energy, reduces corrosion and maintenance costs, and promotes even heating in the coil, by removing incondensable gases from steam systems. A lot of times the cooks in the production area will wonder why their kettles are not heating up very fast, so either one of them or an uninformed mechanic, will assume the trap is not working so they will open the y-strainer valve and just let that valuable precious hot pure clean condensate run all over the floor and down the drain. Not only are they wasting large sums of money by doing this but they are adding to their humidity which is probably already high enough. Did they even check the strainer and the trap? Right here is a good place to mention to all you design engineers that do not have to physically work on these steam traps, to at least locate them where a mechanic can at least get to them. I have seen traps located under kettles that no one would want to work on, so why put them in such of an out of the way place. That is ludicrous design engineering. But anyway, if they are having temperature problems with the kettles, it could be trapped air in the kettle jacket. Thermostatic air vents should be used on the kettle jacket to eject entrapped air but they must be high up on the high points in the jacket for them to work properly. Air actually sets up a barrier between the steam and the steam jacket, and air produces excellent insulating properties which reduces your heat transfer. It takes very little air in a steam system to drastically reduce heating efficiencies of the steam. If everyone, engineering, maintenance, and management, would all re-read this important section and work together on this, many dollars could be saved in wasted heat going down the drain, plus the kettles would be working at top production efficiency.

grim

Your manual ball valve vent will work fine. After heat up give it a small crack and let the steam jet out for a second or two, that’s all it takes.

FloridaCracker

Awesome diagram Smaug. Looks like I have one snag; the inlet/outlet on the bottom is only 3/4"

grim

3/4" NPT to Triclamp adapter.

Reposting - On 5kw, I would think that 3/4" is more than sufficient. Condensate flow would be roughly .03 gallons per minute (~110ml per minute), 2 gallons per hour.

grim

At 5kw, steam velocity through that pipe is 21ft/sec.

That's well below recommended max pipe velocities.

Smaug

3/4 threaded nipple FC? What is the actual OD of the nipple/outlet?

FloridaCracker

@Smaug said: 3/4 threaded nipple FC? What is the actual OD of the nipple/outlet?

Outside diameter is 3/4". A little off because I am trying to get it out.

Pa_bon

@CothermanDistilling, the 2" TC Denrod elements are something I needed and didn"t know existed. Thanks. Don't guess there would be any problems changing out my Camcos with these in my stripper? Wouldn't have pigtails hanging from the pot.

Smaug

@FloridaCracker said: Outside diameter is 3/4". A little off because I am trying to get it out.

I have some ferrules that are 1.5 TC x 25.4 mm ID that may fit nicely over the nipple?