Any interest, or suggestions on, a bolt-on still automation kit?

olddog

No Problems there Lloyd

OD

deejaye

Thanks @punkin for your great service in both supplying the Dash 2 and suggesting I contact @olddog for a power controller with 'extras'. @olddog has been fantastic in keeping me informed on the build and I am really looking forward to using it with the Dash.

olddog

I am just waiting for the missing sensor to turn up and I will ship, you should get it before Xmas. If anyone else wants a build say now as things will come to a standstill with Christmas and Chinese New Year approaching fast

OD

Cambo

So i have some 220v solenoid valves coming and i'm getting ready to order my pids. I want one for dephlegmator control, one just to read column temp, one for boiler control (heat and hold then switch to manual/Mashing control as i will be mashing in this vessel as well).

So for column temp i plan on using this PID

For dephlegmator control i would like to use a dual readout pid, and correct me if im wrong, but the only output i need for this control is a relay output. so it says it can handle 3 amps at 220v so no contactor or ssr required for the valves just wire them straight up to the controller?

And i am a bit unsure of what pid i need for boiler control.... i will be firing all 5 elements from it if it can support that many ssr's at once. Do i need ramp/hold/soak??? They have some with ssr outputs built in and others with ssr relay control... So some insight would be great on this subject.

Here is the selection

Also @olddog where did you get the knob for the PWM control board?

CothermanDistilling

That PID will work fine for your dephleg, and for the boiler it will not, as it has: Control mode PID, On-Off, Limit

you will need 'manual control' for at least one of the elements, the rest can have contactors

the next PID up, the SYL-2362, has manual control: Control mode PID, On-Off, Manual, Limit

You maybe able to run 5 SSR's off of one PID, I run 2... you should check the datasheets, but in reality, SSR's control circuits do not draw much...

I will stress that you should have someone local that knows this stuff help you, someday you will be in a pinch and really need it....

Cambo

Thanks for the input @CothermanDistilling i plan to use a PWM control like olddog used for a more manual "feel" for fine tuning the elements. I will be running this controller on a 380l bain marie so i'm unsure how many elements will need to be on and regulated to maintain boiling in the jacket.

CothermanDistilling

my point is that you only 'need' to control one with the manual PID, the others can be on contactors, saving you from buying SSR's, and saving energy and lowering heat in your control box...

punkin

You are very welcome @deejaye.

olddog

@Cambo said: Also @olddog where did you get the knob for the PWM control board?

I bought the knob from Jaycar electronics

ggf1320

has anyone looked at the bcs 460/462 controllers to substitute a pid?

CothermanDistilling

yup, i love my BCS-462... this is two years ago, it is even nicer now, I will make a video when connected to the TTB-legal still

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-u2YG1e-1g

ggf1320

looks awesome thanks for posting the vid

brewsmith

@olddog, what are the specs on pot are you using for these builds witha 5500W element and 40ASSR?

olddog

I am currently using 2w 500k with a SSRV for boiler control

Lloyd

After building my new controller and plugging it in for the first time I decided to read through the manual.

olddog

Here ya go.

fadge

@olddog said: I know that, but this is easier for me. These are the valves I am using

New Brass 220V AC 3/4" Electric Solenoid Valve Water Air Fuels Gas Normal Closed

OD

Been following this for a while and I think this will be my next project in the future, can I grab a little feedback on a few things?

The valves I assume these get a cycle pulse from the pid and simply go from closed to open then close again, does this get enough control to do the job correctly?

I'm wondering how fast or often the valves need to open/close to allow the water to flow correctly?

I mean do they open up completely then close ? or is the cycle that short it only opens a tiny bit before it again closes back?

I'd have guessed that the 0-10v proportional type valves may have better suited our needs on distilling with perhaps a slightly better/finer control?

Thanks to all on this thread, been excellent information so far, and appears fairly straightforward to dial in temps for semi auto distilling, I know I cant do the same thing by hand as different variables always at work, we make adjustments on the fly with a wait and see if turning this a bit will do such'n'such etc

Fadge

Lloyd

@fadge said:
.... I know I cant do the same thing by hand as different variables always at work, we make adjustments on the fly with a wait and see if turning this a bit will do such'n'such etc

Truer words were never spoken. We cannot possibly hope to get accurate control without the use of computer (or microprocessor) control. We cannot calculate 1000's of variables per second but a few low cost chips can.
Not saying we can't make great booze without cyborgs but it would be easier.

crozdog

@lloyd - I see that one of the aims of automation is to create product consistency. The more we variables we control, the more consistent we can make our output - batch to batch.

tall_fun

Hi! I've been reading the forms for a while and finally made an account.

Here's my question: I'm trying to automated my reflux still and I see that everyone is using PID controllers...but what/where are you monitoring for the input and then what is the output that you are controlling(heat, valve, etc.)?? Any help or direction will be appreciated! :-)

punkin

What kind of reflux still is it?

tall_fun

It's my friends still but I wasn't aware that there were different reflux types? The link below (picture at the bottom) is what the still basically looks like. -disregard all the sensors on it though..

Still automation - the next step in distilling @ Distillique

punkin

Looks to be a cooling management system same as ours. There is also vapour management, liquid management and power management reflux systems. All would require different control systems.

In cooling management you are controlling the flow of cooling water to the reflux condensor. In liquid management you control the amount of liquid taken off and therefore the amount of reflux allowed to feed the column. Vapour take off is controlled for a VM still and power applied to the boiler for a PM still.

tall_fun

Basically in a nut shell there is the boiler....reflux tower...then it makes that 45ish degree bend to the condenser and out comes the product.

So if this is a cooling management system, where should my temperature probe go? Any pictures out there maybe? And like you said I will be controlling water flow to regulate this temperature.

CothermanDistilling

above the dephlegmator measuring vapor, in the dephlegmator measuring coolant temperature, or on the dephlegmator cooling water exit are the three options I have seen.

tall_fun

Which one would you recommend? I was thinking above measuring vapor buuut that's just me.

Lloyd

My CM has worked well with the sensor in the dephlem.

grim

My suggestion is to use the dephlegmator coolant temperature as your variable and control that directly, not the vapor temperature. You can monitor the vapor temperature and adjust the dephlegmator control as necessary.

Using the vapor temperature as your feedback for dephlegmator control isn't ideal, because it's not being directly controlled, it's indirect, and there are a number of additional variables and time delays involved in that. If these variables are all changing over the course of the run, the controller will be constantly hunting to find the new PID parameters.

Why?

Vapor temperature above the dephlegmator is a function of the current wash ABV%, the physical parameters of the column, boiler power input (vapor speed), and the current reflux ratio.

The reflux ratio is being controlled by the dephlegmator coolant temperature, the other items aren't.

The column needs to stabilize under the new reflux ratio in order for the vapor temps to fall or rise, depending on the physical parameters of the column, this might be slow, it might be fast, or it might not even be possible (controller pushes the column into 100% reflux in an attempt to hit the set point).

So instead of an A -> B relationship, you've got something like an X -> Y -> Z relationship, where "Y" has got a whole lot going on.

KISS - manage the condensers directly, this way you are dealing with known, repeatable variables.

grim

One more note, controlling the dephlegmator coolant temperature will still yield a situation where you are stabilizing your vapor temperature.

CothermanDistilling

how about making a device that looks like PID, but is just a temperature monitor with a lookup table from temp to %alcohol.. you place it above the dephleg, and you don't even need a parrot....