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Any interest, or suggestions on, a bolt-on still automation kit?

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Answers

  • Yes that's exactly what I have been doing.

    OD

  • @olddog Cool. Another question for you. The flow control valve you used. What is the rated flow rate at wide open? What style of valve did you go with? A true proportional valve? Solenoid valve and motorized ball valve?

  • Just a solenoid valve.

    OD

  • I actually have two valves to feed the dephlegmater, one which is controled with the PID, and another valve which I can open with a switch on the panel. Both valves are on a parallel feed to the dephlegmater, the switched valve can be opened manually to prime the RC or to re-stack the system, I usually leave this valve in the open position when waiting for the boiler to reach temps, then I switch on the PID and switch off the manual valve and let the system control take over.

    OD

  • Do you have a link to the valve you are using? I would like to look at the specs....You could eliminate the switch and the 2nd valve. All you would need to do is set the PID to a temp way below current water and room temp... Say 0C. That would put the single valve in wide open. Then change to 78C after you are done refluxing.

  • edited September 2013

    I know that, but this is easier for me. These are the valves I am using

    New Brass 220V AC 3/4" Electric Solenoid Valve Water Air Fuels Gas Normal Closed

    OD

  • Thanks I will look at them.

  • They are available in different sizes and voltages.

    OD

  • I ran another strip run over the weekend and watched the temps closely in compared to the output Proof. What I found was that my temp sensor that is above the last plate but below the Dephlem correlated exactly to the proof at the parrot. Manually I kept the temp at 82C by increasing the cooling flow and that gave me a consistent 165P/82.5% at the parrot thru all 30 gallons of the take. Just required small adjustments every 30-45mins on the cooling flow.

    Seams that is would be a very accurate place to base the automated control off of.

    @olddog Where did you get that case for your system? I like the hinge design with the latches but I am having a hard time finding anything like it.

  • Hi RDD, I got the case from a company called Jaycar here in Australia cost $34.95 I have tried putting sensors above and below the dephlegmator, connected through a DPDT switch so I can switch between sensors to see if the temps are different in the two places. The temps read exactly the same, so it's your choice where you put the sensor.

    OD

  • OK... I am going to run through a few things I believe are facts about temperatures above and below the dephlegmator, however, I may be incorrect or incomplete... let me know if I am missing something...

    If you have enough water flowing through the dephlegmator, there will be no vapor passing through, and you likely will have a large temperature difference above and below it. Above it will stabilize somewhere between ambient temp and the cooling water temp if no vapor passes completely through. Below it will be somewhere very close to, but below the boiling point of the top plates ABV mixture.

    When you lower the flow through the dephlegmator, the first vapor that comes out can really be no higher in temperature than the true vapor temperature below, as there is no outside heat being put in. The lowest it could be is the boiling of the ethanol mixture. These two limit it to a very, very small range, likely a tenth of a degree or less if at the top of a multi-plate column.

    If, during the middle of a run, you ramp up the water flow to keep output high-proof, you are using the dephlegmator as an extra and variable plate, well, it does not have a liquid layer, so it is not really a plate, it is a very short reflux column... When stabilized, the distillate dripping down from the dephleg cools the liquid on the plate below it, and therefore lowers the temperature on each plate below that plate a lesser amount if the downcomers are working. (When thinking about this, you have to think of the system as stabilized...)

    If distillate was dripping back down on the probe, that could cause dephlegmator temps to read as the temperature above reading higher than the temperature below. This is the probe being cooler, not the vapor temp below the dephlegmator being cooler.

    In summary, like OD has mentioned, both above and below temps, if measured accurately, will, for all practical purposes, represent the strength of the product if at a stabilized state... A side benefit of this is that you can use temps instead of a parrot for more accurate, more temperature independent and more instantaneous measurement, while using the parrot to have a stabilized reading, but that is dependant upon product temperature.

  • This is where I do not have 'experience' and could use some help: Would using boiler heat or dephlegmator cooling control be worth it when taking into consideration time, energy, quality of product, etc... Say you wanted to try distilling your spirit at 83 degrees C before reducing to 62.5 and putting into a barrel, and then wanted to compare this to 85 and 81 versions (just grabbing numbers here). Obviously, you can compress and take fores and heads at as low of a temp as possible, then target your product vapor temp for the hearts run... How will the tails come in compared to not controlling the vapor temperature? You are going to be increasing water flow or decreasing heat, so it will obviously slow down the product speed, and there is a point beyond which you should stop... for making neutral, it seems like a non-issue, but for whiskey/brandy/rum, what things could one expect?

  • Great read.

    Also to consider: Tails at a specific %abv (as measured with an hydrometer) will contain less water (think less diluted) than heads (or heart) at the same %abv (measured by an hydrometer). This is because the %abv meters we use is rather "density measurement meters" calibrated for a pure ethanol/water mixture. During tails, there are more "non-ethanol, heavy" components which, in effect, screw up the %abv measurement.

    Wish there was a diagram of some kind which can explain this whole "temperature" issue over time in a batch run.

    Spirited people...loves distilling.

  • I am not really plate experienced but this is just my opinion regarding boiler control in reflux columns in general.

    You can run your boiler at two pre-set power levels.

    Use a low power level for the initial column stabilisation and heads removal. Then increase your power to the second power level, and re-stabilise before starting to take product.

    2nd power level is pre-determined to be 80% of the maximum power you can use to take product during the middle of the hearts phase, without flooding or choking the column. Going higher than 80% max power makes it a bit too sensitive to changes.

    All control of product quality is determined by reflux ratio (by inference this includes coolant flow rate, dephlegmator temperature and vapour temperature at the top of the column) and the amount of reflux returned to the column.
    At very high vapour speeds you may find that you generate so much reflux that at some points in the run, you might need to divert some directly back to the boiler - bypassing the column. Personally I don't run a column that hard.

  • @olddog Working on building my reflux controller now. Got all the parts ordered up and they are just starting to arrive. My layout is a bit different as I am adding Temp Displays for the Boiler, Head, and Parrot in addition to the PID reading the Column Temp below the Dehplem for reflux control. I am using RTD PT100 sensors.

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  • looks awesome i am hoping to see some build images of this if possible the drawings are very impressive

  • edited October 2013

    Here is my new build so far, still waiting for components to arrive to complete. The big hole in the front of the enclosure is for a 1/4 din PID .

    OD

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  • Dang @olddog , that is one sweet build! I was approached by a member looking for someone to build him a 5 x 5500 watt controller, 1 on a SSR and 4 straight on/off. U interested in building it for him?

  • @olddog: Magnificent. So neatly done.

    Spirited people...loves distilling.

  • edited October 2013

    @captainshooch said: Dang @olddog , that is one sweet build! I was approached by a member looking for someone to build him a 5 x 5500 watt controller, 1 on a SSR and 4 straight on/off. U interested in building it for him?

    Tel him to shoot me a PM

  • edited November 2013

    Got the 1/4din PID fitted, but still waiting for the warning lamps, its been over a month now since order.

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  • Ebay China? Seems to be something going on with that free delivery/China post service. There's a thread on it on the beer channel.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Yeah I ordered some parts from China that were send via China Post on 10/15 they just cleared Customs today in San Fransisco so I expect them to arrive Monday or Tuesday next week. So 20-22days from when they were shipped.

  • I used to get stuff in 10-14 days, but the last few orders from different suppliers now seem to take a month.

    OD

  • looks awesome old dog wish i had your skills

  • Well IN THE END everything worked great and as designed, but I had problems along the way, not with the controller, just the dumb arse operater had not set the PIDs up correctly. When you receive a new PID, it's normally set up as a heat controller, I had changed the settings on my original PID to cooling. The new bigger PID was set to heat, what I wanted was the otherway round with the smaller one set to heat to controll the boiler and the larger one set to cool to control reflux. I read the instructions about 3 times until I found the instructions how to change it in tiny print. The other problem I had was that the dumb arse operator again, (me) had the boiler sensor plugged into reflux and the reflux condenser sensor plugged into the boiler. When I eventually fixed all of these problems everything ran superbly and it's now ready for the next run. I did find that when the boiler was running on auto, the voltage/ampage display, was solid, but when I ran the boiler manually the ampage readout fluttered up and down as the PWM control emits a pulse every second, whereas the PID output is constant. By the time I had finished the run, I did end up with 3 litres of nice UJSSM.

    OD

  • @olddog, such a run would make a nice video! ;)

    Your Place to be >>> www.StillDragon.org <<< Home of the StillDragon® Community Forum

  • Agreed, @olddog, please make a video and share it with us.

  • All my parts and in for my controller and I have them all fit to the case. Now I just need to wire it all up. :-)

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