Any interest, or suggestions on, a bolt-on still automation kit?

CothermanDistilling

maybe teach/convince @Lloyd 's suppliers how to make those little glass vibrating u-tube densiometers to flow the product through.......

FullySilenced

Gert I have a precision gold scale that weighs to .00 of a gram... 600 gram limit and not an expensive scale.. but had been really tough and serviceable...

that might give you a more accurate window for you abv calcualtions if you intrested i can post the model and make etc.?

EDIT: Ohaus TAJ602 Gold Scale less than 200$

Great Thread you guys keep it up...

Gert_B

@Fullysilenced Thanks a lot! - Googled it and got it at igem dot com.

olddog

Well I finished my auto reflux system and put it through it's paces today. Can I say it was a success? well yes and no.The PID controll system worked as required and controlled the temp which was input to the PID, the big problem is that I think the Thermocouple sensor is either not accurate enough or the location of the sensor under the dephlegmator is not correct, as the reading in the PID and my analogue temp gauge were quite different. My analogue temp gauge read 78c degrees whereas the PID read 84c. Once I worked this out I continued the run at 84c. I found the system worked great in its manual mode, but the under/over limits were too far apart in the auto mode, so I just let it tick away with the P, I, & D settings entered into the unit manually. I did find that it controlled a precise temp setting, and it certainly makes tails a lot easier to identify.
Here is the system as I installed it, I built a parallel feed to the dephlegmater with a valve on each of the two feed tubes.

One valve is used to prime the dephlegmater via a switch on the panel, and the other valve is controlled by the PID
Here is the system setup

Allowing for the temperature reading difference it was producing a steady 90+abv.

I will need to experiment a bit more with the placing of the temp probe to get a more meaningful reading whether it is the water temp, or in the vapor path above the dephlegmator. I have also been advised that a RTD sensor will be more accurate than a thermocouple, so I have a RTD on order. So All in all I am very satisfied with the performance of this little system without having to pay mega dollars for it.

OD

RedDoorDistillery

I would assume the best place to take the temp would be the vapor above the Dephlem. This is the temp of the vapor you are going to collect as product so should correlate to collected ABV. Also you could set the PID below room temp and that would allow you to wide open charge the Dephlem at start up then change the PID to your desired temp eliminating 1 valve.

Is your thermowell Copper or Stainless? I think this will change the accuracy of the temp reading. I switched from copper to SS and I now notice that my temps seam off a few degrees from what I would expect based on the ABV coming out of the parrot.

olddog

Thanks for the suggestion RDD, I had thought of re-locating above the dephleg, it makes good sense. My thermowell is copper btw. and it's about 10cm above my analogue guage

OD

dellae

RTD - make sure it is 3 wire (if your device has the capability). 2 wire is no better than a thermocouple. 3 wire RTD should be good to 0.1 C accuracy.

olddog

Yes the one I have ordered is a 3 wire, I have got the appropriate connections on my PID

Gert_B

@olddog: Excellent! it looks great. The temperature differences between the thermocouple and analog gauge is quite big. Could it be that one (or both) are not calibrated? I have this nasty feeling that the thermocouple's precision is not the problem but its calibration point... will be interesting to see your results when replacing the thermocouple with the RTD.

I'm concerned about identifying the tails based on temperature of the vapor alone. For example: the temperature of a very pure i.e. 20% ethanol/water vapor, might be the same temperature as a mix of 30% ethanol/water/fusel oils (especially in fruit mashes). It even becomes even more confusing when compressing in columns when the temperature actually drops as purity increases during the compression.

By measuring the mash temperature and the difference between the mash and vapor temperature, the mash temperature, and the %abv from the parrot, we found that a much better "conclusion" can be reached as to what is flowing from the parrot (i.e. tails with congeners in versus low %abv "clean" spirits)

Since the start of our "automation project" we simplified the setup quite a lot (view it at this link). However, the %abv is still read and entered manually into the controller software.... and it is a real pain...

Lloyd

So not quite Ron Popeil yet, set it and forget it?

I applaud your endeavour @olddog, this is exactly the next step in the evolution of hobby (and pro) distilling. And on a limited budget to boot!

Easy to throw tens of thousands of dollars to get to the same solution that you are hammering out for a tiny fraction of that. Nice.

Schematic please?

moscca

Congratulation OD, looks very nicy, I'm sure you will bring this to a good end.

RedDoorDistillery

First thing would be to check the calibration of both the Manual and PID Temp sensors in a pot of boiling water for your altitude. As Gert said one or both may be out of calibration.

On a plated still taking and maintaining the temp at the top plate should work. If the top plate is set to the temp of the ABV you want say 78.2 °C for Azeotrope. If the top plate is at azeotrope then the temp should be able to be set to maintain the top plate concentration.

I have noticed that my top plate is at 78c but the head temp after the Dephlem is only about 75c but I am still pulling 191 out of the parrot (Temp Adjusted).

I need to check the calibration of the Head sensor as I am not sure it is correct and it is in a SS thermowell.

CothermanDistilling

Should we make copper thermowells? Seems like a no-brainer... maybe super-trick copper ended stainless thermowells, maybe made using a friction weld? and/or some sort of device to hold the probe tip tight against the inside wall of the thermowell?

punkin

I'm not up much on the theory and science behind what we do, but i understood the reflux condesnor to be acting as a theoretical plate? therefore above the top plate would = above the reflux condensor?

olddog

Well now I am totally confused. I decided to see how far out the thermocouple was so I boiled a kettle full of water and put the end of the themocouple down the spout and let it boil. The temp readout on the PID was 100 degrees, WTF

olddog

I have machined a fitting to go onto the column with the same thread as the thermocouple so the SS probe will be without a thermowell. I will see if that makes a difference, it will be a more direct reading than being in a copper thermowell.

CothermanDistilling

yes, if your sensor is already in a SS probe of it's own, use that for the quickest reading... if you had the plastic bead type, then copper may be the fastest way.

RedDoorDistillery

One thing I was thinking about is that liquid at 100C maybe better at transferring heat to the probe than when it is sitting in a vapor path and not in liquid.

Did you check your manual temp gauge as well using the same process?

You stated @ 84c on the PID you were pulling 90%. Was this the temp corrected %? Looking at your picture with the of the parrot the Temp looks to be about 25C. Adjusting for Temp that would give you 86.5% or 173Proof.

Or did you adjust the PID to a different setting to adjust for the temp reading being off?

A vapor of 84c I would expect the ABV to be 77.5%/155P but at 78C it should be 95%/190P.

harley

So here I will do and this I think myself fit me well .. Make sure the reflux condenser is so oversized that speed through this is real low and all that passes it has the same temperature as the water in the reflux condenser ... put my temp sensor in the middle of the reflux condenser in the water bath and of course so is the temp sensor "naked" for the most accurate temp and only connected with a 1/2 connection. This way is so that I will make and the more I read about reflux condenser and reflux automatic control the more this feels like the best solution for me ...

Cheers

harley

Now maybe you will understand why I have a 2 cm distans between all pipe in the middle of all my reflux condenser .. It's all about planning Cheers

olddog

I have found the answer to my problems. I tested the thermocouple in a kettle of boiling water, it showed 100 degrees as it should. I thought I had a problem with either the column or the thermocouple calibration until I just repeated the same by putting my analogue dial type thermometer in the boiling kettle, guess what, it only read 95 degrees so it it is out reading 5 degrees too low. I had only been using this thermometer since my wife claimed my digital unit to make yoghourt, I noticed the output of the still was slower, I put this down to lower alcohol content in the wash, I was wrong, so I am happy to say the controller WORKS GREAT.

OD

RedDoorDistillery

@olddoog Great to hear that you found where the error lies.

I ran a test today with just a handheld digital thermometer. I placed the tip in boiling water and it read 99.9C so pretty dang close to dead on. I then held the tip about an inch above the boiling water in the vapor and get a reading of 94.4C.

I still think you have an issue about the ability to get an accurate temp. If the sensor that you have now verified @ 100c for boiling water was reading 84c then the vapor should have only been 77.5%/155P.

If your output was 90% then the vapor temp should have been 79C not 84C.

olddog

I ran the still with the controller again today and I am absolutely loving it. After talking with Swede from AD I realized that by setting the temp to 74.7 degrees does not work as the temp probe is attached to the outside wall of the column and carries the heat form the boiler making the column itself a conductor for heat, and copper conducts heat well. I adjusted the still visually, observing the flow from the dephlegmater and adjusting the PID temp setting until the flow was the same as I would have got with manual valves, I also observed the product flow. With the PID now adjusted to the new temp 81 degrees the run proceeded until the product flow reduced to drips, I collected 2 1/2 litres at 92% in the end and the PID was still holding 81 degrees. I had a spare thermocouple which I fitted to the still in the vapor tube above the dephlegmator, and wired with a double pole double throw switch with the feed to the PID, so now I can check temps above and below the dephlegmater, the temp varies with the different position on the column. So thing I have learned with this run. 1: Dont expect to run at 74.7 degrees, (Swede tells me he runs at 80 degrees for whiskey and 60 degrees for vodka) 2: Do use the autotune on the PID but it need to run up to 15 mins to calibrate. 3: Different positions on the column will give different temps.

One thing I really like about it is that now I have it dialed in, is that I can change the flow rate and ABV with a touch of a button. One degree either way makes a noticeable difference, and it will maintain that flow, you cannot do that consistently with manual valves.

OD

olddog

I forgot to note that Swede is working with water temps, whereas I am working with vapor temps.

OD

bentstick

Good to see you add the probe at the vapor path OD that is the one I keep the most vigil on,but I am not automated but do run the looger light through my computater as Mr C did And graph all my runs,check it out works a peach and ya may be able to saddle it your system,no guess work atall. B-)

captainshooch

@olddog I am with you and vapour temp management is waht I prefer.

olddog

Just lovin the auto heads cut off, auto hearts cut off and compression of tails. I could never achieve this manually.

OD

RedDoorDistillery

What temps are you using as your set point for each cut off point? What Proof are you pulling now that you have it dialed in better?

olddog

78 degrees for heads, 82 degrees for hearts @90abv the proof is no different than manual operation but the separation of heads/hearts/tails is vastly better.

OD

RedDoorDistillery

So do you set the temp low (full reflux) to compress the heads and then set at 78 and let it run till it stops to cut the heads? Then you change to 82 and let it run again till it stops dripping for hearts but maintain 90abv the whole time?