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Clostridium Saccharobutyricum Bacteria

edited January 10 in General

Has anyone read of Arroyo's work and the use of clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria during the fermentation of a rum wash? It is supposed to produce desirable esters in a consistent manner unlike the haphazard infections that take place in a dunder pit. I found the bacteria available, I am just wondering if it is worth the expense to experiment with it.

"Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

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  • edited July 2013

    Saw mention of the bacteria the other day in your post on ADI, but haven't seen the stuff you are referencing.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

  • Im in. where would one search for such a beastie?

  • Arroyo's patent application from the 1940's is one, J.E. Murtough mentions it in his book in Chapter 16 as well. The bacteria is available for research purposes through a lab, ATCC, for about $400. Attached is the Murtough reference.

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    "Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

  • I found another lab that sells it for $8 a culture. But you have to reproduce it in sufficient volume that your inoculum constitutes a 2% of your overall wash volume. This requires an incubator with a CO2 environment as the bacteria is anaerobic and will die in an oxygen environment. I have them working up a price to prepare the inoculum so I can just add it to the ferment. I did not factor the cost of a lab into my distillery expenses...

    "Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

  • Well, I have 6 cultures on their way, and a simplified method for preparing the inoculum (provided by a micro-biologist.) Should be able to try it out in a couple of weeks.

    "Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

  • Would be interested to do a side by side test with aged dunder.

    M.

  • this is very cool

  • I have been thinking about that. I have about 150 gallons of dunder aged about 4months so far. It really didn't start doing anything until it warmed up the last month or so. It has a light tan mold, and has a slight fruity, spicy, aroma. I have thought about mixing a portion of the dunder with the wash at distillation, not before fermentation. I don't like the idea of not knowing what micro-organisms are active in my wash. The aging of the dunder is supposed to produce the "rum oils" that give it the desired flavor profile.

    I was also given a two step fermentation process that is supposed to increase the desired ester production. The first yeast is a high ester producer but dies off at about 2% abv. Then the second yeast is pitched to finish fermentation. I will be trying that out soon as well.

    "Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

  • I have +/- 120 L of dunder now aging for 2 months. It takes only a week of so to form a tan mold and smelling strong fruity. Temperature here is 24-33 C, so I think the temperature is important. Do you keep your dunder air tight ?

    M.

  • The "dunder pit" has a lid, but it is not air tight. The temperature here rarely gets above 70 degrees. I am on the Oregon coast, so the hotter it gets inland the foggier and subsequently cooler we stay.

    Should the dunder prove to be a valuable component in the process, I will find a place for it inside and keep it warm. Currently, space in the distillery is at a premium, so it does not get priority until it proves its usefulness.

    "Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

  • this is very cool

  • edited August 2013

    Cultures are in!

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    "Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

  • Hello stillwagon, any progress ?

  • I am testing a batch with the bacteria inoculum. I started the bacteria culture Monday, the ferment yesterday, and added the inoculum today. It should ferment out in the next 48 hours or less. it will rest for about 24 hours, then I will run it.

    "Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

  • The run went well. I did the cuts as Arroyo prescribed. Now for a little aging and see what we get...

    "Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

  • Hope you can describe the progression of smells moving forward

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • @stillwagon, did I understand this right, that you are going to keep and cultivate this bacteria?

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  • I am doing a second run now with a few adjustments. Arroyo was very specific on the level of sugars present, the ABV, and the temp when the bacteria is introduced. I was a little off on some of these so I am trying to dial this run in a little closer.

    I will not be trying to maintain my own culture as that requires a sterile environment to avoid contamination. The cultures are cheap enough to just buy them as needed.

    "Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

  • Stillwagon, I am a lab manager for a local brewery as well as a mycology enthusiast, any chance you could share your source for the bacteria? If so, I can likely propagate it under sterile conditions and share. Thanks in advance.

  • @brewsmith said: Stillwagon, I am a lab manager for a local brewery as well as a mycology enthusiast, any chance you could share your source for the bacteria? If so, I can likely propagate it under sterile conditions and share. Thanks in advance.

    Let us know how it goes... we have two local breweries here that diver pretty deep into the funky beers... I think those aromas that CS is described as having may lend some interesting characteristics to the normal funky beers... One place has a small lab, the other just uses their experience(and nose)...

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  • edited September 2013

    Here is a link to ATCC that sells the culture for research and commercial purposes. You will have to license the cultures if you plan to use them commercially.

    "Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

  • @CothermanDistilling, love 7th Sun, I actually know some of the guys who work there from their Cigar City days, glad to hear they are getting a reputation down there.

    @stillwagon, thanks much for the link, i'll see what I can do with it :) No plans to use it commercially, just for some good ole fashioned home stillin'

  • That shirt is hilarious i want some for my brewd

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • Really? Wow thanks.

    StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America

  • I ran a second 50 gallon run adding the 12 gallons of heads, hearts, and tails from the first run. I was able to get a larger volume of product (of course) but most importantly was the distinction of the tails. From about 60% down to 38% was undesirable, too musky and bitter. I kept from 35% down to about 25% which was about 2 gallons that had a sweet rum flavor. These were mixed back into the hearts and gave a sweet, flavorful, complex, rum. This amounted to 11 gallons of 70% that will be headed into oak soon.

    "Those that say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it."

  • Great info. I often used to find in Bourbon and rum a section of late tails that were included in the hearts, not a lot of people realize these sections are in there.. I get too lazy nowadays unfortunately.

    StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand

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