Do I have this right? Cuts explained

mtnspirits

Hi all,

I've searched to no avail and have read quite a bit on different parts of this subject but wanted to throw it into the wild to get your opinions/facts on this one part.

Disclaimer: The following numbers are completely fictional and probably don't make sense. I know the Compleat Distiller has some suggested calculations for figuring this out, but mine is packed away right now and I just want to make sure that I understand the theory anyway.

I have a 26 gallon still. If I make a 100 gallon wash and do 4 stripping runs I'll be left with approximately 25 gallons (depending on lots of variables, I know). I then do a product run on those 25 gallons and cut the fores, heads, hearts and tails. My product (hearts run hopefully at 80-90% ABV) then is diluted to ~50% ABV with clean water and filtered through activated charcoal.

Please let me know if the following is true or false:

I distill one more time to bring it back up 80-90% abv and since I previously made cuts to remove the fores, heads, and tails I don't have to worry about cutting again - I can let the still run until the ABV bottoms out past my liking while collecting everything that comes out as consumable, since it is just a mix of my previous product and water. It is not necessary for me to cut again.

Thanks in advance!

FloridaCracker

Well for one thing, you will need more than one gallon head space to do a true stripping run. Figure on doing 5 stripping runs and you will do better. Especially if you are doing rum, you will get a pretty good foam head going during the run. Also on the spirit run, you will want more headspace.

Of course I am going on the assumption that the 26 gallons is total and not useable volume.

Good luck

punkin

You'll still have to do cuts no matter how many times you run it in my experience.

mark85

From experience, the cuts on your final run as described will be smaller but they will still be there no matter how neutral you think it tastes going back in to the still

Kapea

Skip the charcoal and do a second spirit run. If you compress your heads and make good heads cuts on the first spirit run you won't have to worry about heads on the second run. There will be tails on the second run though.

Leastways that's how it works on my machines.

• Strip
• Spirit run
• Dilute to 35% for second spirit run collected at azeotrope.

That makes the base spirit for my gin.

grim

Why would you bother doing another run if you aren't going to make cuts? Just to increase the proof?

CothermanDistilling

my stripping run pot still does 5:1.... decrease volume by 5:1, increase alcohol by 5:1... but that is my still the way I run it... I think you will be lucky to run 20 gallons, I have my automated system heat fast to the point it foams, then really, really slow for a time you determine, and then to normal takeoff rate... (this is a great reason to have a viewable port on your headspace of your still) I take little or no cuts on the stripping run.

Spirit run, well you have to mention what it is you are making and what you are making it in the original post of any thread you start. if you state your wash type, your boiler size, and your still design, you help us answer your questions and you also increase the chance that someone will read it and say 'hey, that is just like mine, my input will be valuable!'

Basically, if you have never done it, separate your spirit run into at least 20 jars, you can have smaller at the ends and larger in the middle, but run it all into 20+ jars and then cover them with a cloth and judge them the next day... in a year, you will be able to separate with only 5-6 containers, and your senses will be vastly improved... a few years of regular practice later, you will be able to do it on the fly, and you senses will trigger at much, much smaller levels than you ever thought possible.... and things like Goose, Jose, and Jack will taste like someone intentionally put heads in them...

and try to make things without carbon filtering, you are taking our good things with carbon and potentially putting in bad things...

mtnspirits

Sorry for the lack of clarity! Agreed in the head space thing. I was hoping by putting in the disclaimer on the fictional numbers would help in explaining that I knew the math didn't add up and I would gain that knowledge over time. I should have perhaps left it out all together. I will try to be briefer and more distinct in what I am asking next time ;)

I was really asking about the theory of whether you all cut on each run after the spirit run (if there are multiple runs).

I will be making gin and herbal tinctures (thus I need the higher abv back after the filtering for macerating). I will be starting with a sugar wash and was even thinking in the beginning of buying neutral spirits to hit the ground running for the first couple months. I don't like that idea at all but there were quite a few delays in getting my licenses that were beyond my control.

Agreed on the not filtering thing, but some customers are adamant about it and I need to assess whether it is a market that I want to deal with due to the extra work.

I really do appreciate your input and the support that is here. Cheers!

Kapea

@grim said: Why would you bother doing another run if you aren't going to make cuts? Just to increase the proof?

I was surprised by the amount of tails left behind in the boiler after my second spirit run. Before starting to do second spirit runs I thought my neutral was pretty neutral.

@minime is the one who put me on to this.

This was part of my learning how to taste subtle flavors in spirits as well. The fermentables used to make neutral spirits leave a residual flavor in the spirit, even at 3X.

It's changed my acessments of comercial spirits as well. Some are bad, really bad. Some are amazing in their lack of "off flavors". Some are amazing in how they use "off flavors" intentionally as part of their flavor profile.

I recently had a tasting at a commercial distillery where the head distiller proudly poured everyone a taste of their vodka. Before we could even taste it we could smell the heads. The smell filled the air at the tasting table. The tiniest of sips confirmed what the smell was saying, "This vodka is a hangover looking for a place to happen."

Smaug

We had a really hard time in the beginning trying to explain why a 6 plate still is not a vodka machine without trying to come across too salesy.

Even now we get some skeptical replies when we recommend no less than 10 plates if your trying to produce a vodka snob's vodka.

CothermanDistilling

Tell em to talk to me if they want to hear that 24 plates is almost good enough ;-)

grim

That's strip and 24 - or single pass 24?

Smaug

I look forward to your latest iteration Michael.

So far the boys at Jackson Hole are doing a spectacular job with 16 plates.

CothermanDistilling

strip then 24 plates ... won't run wash through my plates... too hard to clean... biggest thing is really getting real 190.. not it says 192 on the hydro and you think it is 190.... that shit Kapea said he tried, sounds like my batch 1, which I am thoroughly ashamed of... I gave everyone a free bottle of newer vodka a few months later

example - calibrated hydro and thermo and pull 192.8 @ 72.0 degrees (real 190) and keep it above that for several hours... seat of the pants guess, I can pull 188 at about 4x the rate of real 190... I now do it the easy way with the DMA-35 used every few minutes while stabilizing, and keep it at 190.5 which gives me a bit of cushion for the accuracy of the meter...

yes, you tasted batch 2 in that video(which was awesome, BTW), batch 5/6 makes that bath 2 taste like white dog... good, but way too much flavor to mix with certain things... I keep a bottle for special guests to taste in comparison...

FloridaCracker

Hey Cotherman, if you aren't constantly improving or tweaking something, you are getting stale. It's amazing how much difference one or two generations can make.

grim

What was the bottle I got from @Smaug?

grim

Ah batch 5 - I think it's pretty damn good. Was this the 24?

Kapea

FWIW - I use a 2" copper VM column with 48" of stainless steel pot scrubbers for packing for making my neutral. Damn thing compresses heads like a vise.

CothermanDistilling

@grim said: Ah batch 5 - I think it's pretty damn good. Was this the 24?

Yes... come visit when it freezes up there and you can taste # 2...

grim

I think I'm back down there in October.