Pisco Raki Arak etc

DonMateo

Thanks mate. My mate / business partner who wants to do this is going dambusters getting things organised but he knows nothing about distilling. His mother in law makes 40,000 m3 of grape juice. I told him we only need about 1000l to start with.
Anyway let me know how it goes mate.

GD50

You going authentic or modern as normally the fermentation is done with naturally occurring yeast. Another question which you may be able to assist with is after production storage / aging as I believe it is traditionally done in ceramic jars with wax lid. I was wondering if they were completely sealed like glazed inside or were the jars slightly porous.. If the jars are sealed then big glass jars should be ok.. Just thinking ahead hoping I get a drinkable product.

Also for your info I got a lime tree which is a key lime but I seem to remember you thought the Peru lime was different. My research could not confirm this and suggested the local lime was a Key. Got the lime tree and a Yuzu Japanese citrus to go in this week.

GD50

You must have an extra zero on that grape juice as that is 40,000,000 litres . Ferment all that and you will have enough Pisco to supply the whole world even after lifting the Pisco sour to its right level.

DonMateo

Hey mate, I am going to go authentic or with the best yeast that they use for those grapes to make it into wine from that region. I was tempted to go a champagne yeast like ec1118 but all of the top quality brandy makers seem to use the local yeast max ABV at 12 % and then keep it clean and run it through the still.

I dont think I am going to put it in ceramic jars as thats a real peruvian thing. I was thinking of using 200l HDPE food grade containers which are cheap, or get a large container to put the wine in. Yes in Peru the age the top quality pisco in those ceramic containers and the leave them out in the sun. I think that is to let it age a bit and the higher volatiles seep out through the ceramics. Chileno pisco doesnt do that and the cheap stuff gives you brutal hangovers. I am hoping the stuff we make with a fractioning still will seperate the high volatiles and heads/ foreshots out just nicely and with those gone you crank up the power and run it out. I dont know how it works but I read up on making brandy and I think that is probably the way to go. I read up on making wine brandy on the various web boards and that seems to be the way to go. The only alternative is to bring up the temp slowly using a pot still head, and take off the foreshots and heads and then run it out. Anyway a couple of things to try.

Yes mate the Key lime will be very close to the Peruvian Limon. A key lime is about 5 cm diameter and the Limons from South America/Peru are about 4cm in diameter and the taste should be pretty close.

Yes I said to my mate lets start with making 1000l of wine, distill it and then see how it works. If we can get it done right then its a matter of calling on his mother in law for a few thousand more.
Hey mate where do you live ??

GD50

Find some glass or ss for aging. The thought of Hdpe does not sound all that good.

DonMateo

I was going to put the wine in HDPE but the pisco in SS. And run it through an Ultrasound as well.
Cheers mate.

GD50

That sounds better.

grim

EC1118 vs a natural fermentation is going to be a night and day difference.

I don't think there is going to be a better or worse, just very different. Cool fermented EC1118 is super clean, not to mention the fact that it's a killer strain, and would likely out-compete any local Saccharomyces yeast on the grapes (making it even cleaner yet). I understand some top pisco styles distill with a small amount of residual sugar left (Pisco Mosto Verde) - this would be very challenging to do with EC1118 as it is an aggressive fermenter. Also, with this fast ferment, much lower ester content, aromatics, and likely lower volatile acidity.

grim

The chapter on Pisco in Fermented Beverage Production is pretty good, they list three main varietals for being the best for pisco. Thoughts?

Best being Muscat of Alexandria (Italia), Pink Moscat, and Yellow Torontel/Torrentes Riojano. Poor being Pedro Jimenez and Moscat of Austria. They list about 13 total, but those 5 seem to make up the bulk.

Seems to run contrary to the discussion, but maybe not (Italia and Pink Moscat being recognized as best).

Interesting that these are all heavy aromatic varietals, which I thought was looked down upon in european brandy production. Also interesting that Germain-Robin has been working with aromatic varietals in brandy, and that's bucking the trend.

grim

Or is that really, the big differentiation between Peru and Chile?

Non-aromatics vs aromatics?

Would make sense, since most of the long-time brandy makers would shun aromatics as being of lower quality.

Quebranta looks to be a non-aromatic.

Single pass aromatic with wide cuts would probably be awfully agressive without long-long-long term aging, which isn't in the style.

DonMateo

@grim,
Thanks very much for the advice.

DonMateo

@grim.
The biggest difference is what @Smaug aluded to and your question. Peruvian pisco is made from Quebranta grapes which is non-aromatics and nice and dry. As well Peruvian pisco put the pisco in ceramic amphorae and leave them in the sun for a while. You can get aromatic pisco in Peru but its not common.
Chileno pisco is made from moscatel grapes and they basically make the wine and do a single pass through big copper pot stills. I think they bring up the temperature slowly so to take of the foreshots and heads. And it ends up tasting fruity and sweet. Not half as clean and nice as Peruvian Pisco but Chilenos have their taste buds in their assholes and they dont know the difference. A mate of mine when to a craft pisco distillery in the north with some guy using moscatel grapes but a with a modern fractioning column making tight cuts and it was very very nice. Almost as good as Peruvian Pisco.
I will try the EC1118 when I get around to making pisco in the south of Chile. Thanks again for the advice.

GD50

I used EC1118 in my now bubbling brew.

Hey Christmas is coming up and a bottle of genuine Pisco lasts about 2 days around that time so if my brew is even reasonable with lots of lime it will do . You gotta remember I am a pensioner now. Beautiful night out on the farm tonight so sweet pea had a elderflower cordial ( as she is turning into a bit of a woos in her old age - especially working in aboriginal dry lands for a while ) so I made a ring stinger caipirinha with some nice cahacha from my "library ". Was good but not as nice as a Pisco sour. It sure kicked a bit though- probably something with the way I mixed it.

All good.

DonMateo

@gd50 Have you made your pisco yet mate??

GD50

No still fermenting at 1.02. Stirred and checked ph and TA yesterday and added some calcium carbonate as ph was 2.8. Was concerned the yeast would not like the adjustment mid stream but i think it is still bubbling. Also put a fish air pump and diffuser thru it for a while to remove the CO2 generated during the neutralizing process.

Your just all revved up waiting for you new installation to happen. Patience is a virtue they say.

Keep your eye open for some ceramic storage jars they age Pisco in and take a photo for me if you ever see one.

grim

Late stage oxygen addition during fermentation can cause yeast to form acetic acid, the opposite of what you were hoping for I think.

GD50

Thanks grim it was only because the addition of the calcium carbonate caused a bit of foaming due to the CO2 generated so it was an attempt to remove that and get things back in order. Its a learning curve for me thats for sure. The whole fermentation seems slow for me so i was trying to counter some of the possible problems.

grim

I've found sometimes it helps to add a little bit of DAP and rouse the yeast.

If you absolutely think you need to, use Food Grade Lye to adjust the pH up, a tiny bit. This is almost never the problem.

Increase nutrient a bit on the next ferment.

GD50

Ran it today. Was a bit worried as it tasted a bit acid but I got 9 liters starting around 70 with a lot in the 60 % and ran it down to 30%. If pisco is not allowed to be watered down how do they get a 40% product as guessing I will be high 50s. Tastes ok though a bit sweet even though the ferment ended up 990. A tiny sulphite smell but very small and feel it might air out. Was worried when I air bubbled the brew after mid ph adjust with calcium carbonate that I might have sent it into to vinegar mode but very happy especially for mark 1. 45litre wash.

Off to pre Christmas family in Adelaide for a while so it will get a good airing ready for taste/ mix when I get back. Definitely has potential. Thanks for all input.

DonMateo

THanks for the info GD50. Your a winner mate.

RobertS

I'd imagine the workaround for 'not watering down' would be to run it VERY low.

GD50

I actually went to 28% and was going to go lower but there was a dramatic change in still performance and temperatures around this point. Mind you Pisco has some very distinct flavours which could possibly come from the low end run. I will taste the bottom end after airing and a little age and repost. With Christmas coming up I reckon the ageing might be in the glass with a bit more lime and Peruvian bitters. It's only a style I am after so I don't mind a bit of water going in and there is nothing wrong with 55% anyway.

jacksonbrown

You can always blend a small sample, I suppose.

GD50

@grim my problem was trying to do to much in the day. Ph adjustment seemed to work upwards with calcium carbonate but I should have done it in the beginning not mid way. My logic in bubbling with air after the mid way adjustment was to remove the CO2 generated with the calcium carb add. Was definitely worried after the comment that I might have driven it to vinegar production but it seems to have worked out ok. Will see what I have got very soon but looking ok. I want to use this same grape concentrate in a much more refined spirit back thru the GB4 to make raki/arak/ouzo and a little more confident to do a bigger batch and plate still before going back to the pot for the final run. It's all pretty new for me but with the help of this site and the excellent SD gear I have I think I will get there pretty quick..

Not being a scotch drinker I have a hankering for the off beat products and liqueur floral / citrus and eventually rum style which I think the GB4 will deliver. It all depends on the available raw material you have to work with to make your base spirit- though some are universal like molasses .

Would love to get sugar cane juice but in South Australia we got grapes and fruit and generally plenty of it and the unique like native juniper ( Boobialla ) and coastal Rosemary so these need a bit of attention

In the end I think I will like pot stilling but need to make mickle mouse No 1 alcohol to start with. It's all good.

punkin

Just had an enquirey from a potential customer in Western Australia who is making Pisco, hopefully he'll join up and have a chat.

Margaret River PISCO

Sam

I was just wondering if anyone had any success with their Pisco?

I was starting to think about getting my ass into gear to talk to some of the local vineyards and wine makers here ahead of the January harvest season here. Pisco sounds like an option worth exploring as from what I can figure out the terroir of the wine comes across more than in say a brandy/cognac style.

The main varieties up here are Semillion, Chardonnay & Shiraz/Syrah so a bit of a cross section from lighter to fuller bodied varieties. I would love to make something that expresses the local region and am curious how those playing in this space went?

@GD50 how did you go with the concentrate from Tarac, were they any good?

GD50

@Sam Sorry I don’t seem to have answered this and see you are working thru it as we speak. Yes I got a good result with the Tarac and have more so will give it another go but am thinking of adding raisins to the ferment then pot stilling.

Sam

@GD50 thanks for that, Tarac only had the neutral juice so will play with that for now. They tell me Muscat and Shiraz usually come back into stock around April time.

I was going to try neutral first then do a lower alcohol ferment and give Pisco a try as I read somewhere its best to distil at around 8.5% so then the end result is a more reasonable ABV seeing as you aren’t supposed to dilute it.

Let me know how you go with the rasins.

GD50

I used the muscat. 8.5 seems a little low though. When I do my gin in pot still mode with a GB4 I usually go to something like 16 % and end up with 45% which is where I like it.

Can’t see much value in all the effort then going to neutral. Keep your option open an just strip your ferment and see what it tastes like. A cut of your strip will automatically be Pisco by nature. Then decide.

I was always going to cut out the Pisco from the strip then redistill the rest through say 4 plates then combo vapour infuse / macerate with aniseed for a Raki

@DonMateo suggested that it was more correct to make Pisco from a more neutral grape juice if I remember.

GD50

Tis a pity @MRPISCO in Western Australia has not posted much. I would like to know how he is getting on with his 8” dash and his Pisco in general. If I get over that way I will definitely be hunting a bottle.

Edit. I just searched his business and see he is in a legal battle with The Republic of Peru over the use of the name Pisco. Wonder how that is going.