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In this Discussion
- applepie November 2013
- awesome January 2014
- bentstick November 2013
- Bold August 2013
- captainshooch February 2014
- chill July 2013
- cooperville October 2013
- CothermanDistilling April 2014
- cunnyfunt February 2014
- delta_H August 2013
- emptyglass October 2013
- Fluxed October 2013
- fnulnu February 2014
- FullySilenced December 2013
- Geezaboy July 2013
- gixxerpilot750 August 2013
- Grip February 2014
- harley November 2013
- jonno October 2013
- Karl August 2013
- Law_Of_Ohms February 2014
- Lloyd April 2014
- LunaBrille August 2013
- mikejwoodnz August 2013
- Moonshine February 2014
- moscca September 2013
- Mtnmann December 2013
- Myles September 2013
- nvnovrts September 2013
- Philter February 2014
- punkin February 2014
- RedDoorDistillery April 2014
- Smaug March 2014
- spud1700 September 2013
- Stinger August 2013
- Vaya_Con_Dios_Distillery September 2013
- zymurgybob July 2013
Comments
@ Reed a think that you and me have differents messure stuff-sensor in refluxcooler, my sensor is "naked" both in the water in refluxcooler and in the steam on top plate, that is why a need a roof over it so a dont get the temp from cold reflux licuid to get on it, a only want to have fresh steam on it... and the temp on the top plate shall always go higher (more water to refluxcooler to compensate it and to hold same temp in refluxcooler all time) ju closer to the end that you are coming. but this is all teori from my side.
This is what a have read me to shall be the best way to do it. a hope so, but a relly dont nowe this my self yet, this shall give som typ of "arc" effect....
Cheers
See even on Swedes Manual it says "Vapor Temp Monitoring" Not "Reflux Water Monitoring"
I have a temp sensor at the Top of the Head and another one above the top plate before the Dephlag. I would suggest monitoring the Head Temp of what is getting past the Dephlag.....
Is there any Make and Model Info on the Valve that is provided with that system? I am interested in looking up the specs.
Yes you have right, a have 1pc sensor on the top plate and 1pc sensor in the reflux water and both is going to this panel. Take a look on his side, there you can find a lot of info.
Dephlegmator Control Center
Cheers
OK so he is using a Dual Loop Control Signal. Vapor Temp and Water Temp. The benefit to this would be if your water inlet temp varies a lot from Summer to Winter. As the PID can learn to adjust with less overshoot issues.
I really don't think this is necessary in my case as my tap water only varies from about 12-15C across the whole year.
I have been all over the website and I have not been able to find any reference to what valve the system is using. I can see from the sticker that it is a 24vAC valve but this does not tell me the Max Flow Rate or the timing of the valve open to close or what style of valve it is.
RDD,
That's Swede's system he is a member on AD he makes full control systems... he seems to be very good at it as well..
He was a commercial vendor on MD but withdrew his spot and moved back to AD...
I have no ide of flow ore time to open or close, a trust that swede nowe what he is selling and it,s working that it is made to do.... Ask him of this data, so you now if this solution is good ore fast enought for you.
But this is what a ment that refluxcooler need to be wery powerfull-relly low steam flow thru it... I have all in copper in my, so a think that a shall have no problem and in ss a think that it need to have a lot lower steam speed to work, to give the ss tube time to relly cool down the steam...
Cheers
@RedDoorDistillery
Vapor temperature and reflux water temp should be the same thing, IF reflux condenser is efficient enough, that's where we have to come up with the construction of a new reflux condenser ...
a super efficient reflux condenser capable of fully reflux about 30 000watt at full water flow, then learn the steam temperature and water-temperature to be the same or very close in temp during normal distillation.
Cheers
RDD, I could not veiw the video for some reason.
Red Door Distillery's YouTube Channel
Cheers
OK so I mapped out 2 options for upgrades to the Dephlem using 3/4" and 1/2" tubes. And recalculated the starting surface area and final surface area.
The current tubes are actually 1.13" or 28.25mm. This means I am starting with 227 sq/in of contact area with the 8 existing tubes.
I could do one of the following.
Add 14x 3/4" (20mm) tubes. This would add 278 sq/in of contact area bringing it up to 505 sq/in and a 122% improvement over stock. OR Add 30x 1/2" (14.5mm) tubes. This would add 433 sq/in of contact area bringing it up to 660 sq/in and 190% improvement over stock.
My other thought was to use copper tubes instead of SS which would greatly improve the thermal transfer. But I have 2 concerns over doing this.
With 2 different size tubes the vapor speed would be different depending on which tube the vapor went thru. Slower in the larger SS and Faster in the Copper.
With using some SS and some Copper the thermal transfer would be different. The vapor going up the SS may not knock down while the vapor in the copper will under the same amount of cooling flow.
The vapor will move faster in the copper but it has better thermal transfer. While the vapor in the SS will move slower with the poorer thermal transfer.
Thoughts? Has anyone ever tried SS and Copper tubes in the same dephlem?
Hi RDD, I have personally go for the latest skis-draving with 14pc 20mm pipe ( looks good), but a have also put in something in the big pipe to get more steam turbulens-move around there… maybe a twisted copper sheet like in one of the earlier post, and of course change side of one pc water inlet. The different is to big in the first skis-draving in pipe size….
Cheers
If it is going to give us info for upgrades to existing condensor then it should be stainless for us to take the results away. You have to do what's best for you, but for us as a development tool, the best would be to add more tubes the same size from the same material or replace the ones that are there with smaller ones and more of them.
I love that you are doing this by the way, it's fantastic.
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
I would use the larger tubes and add one or two water ports to the other side... to make sure you get crossflow... i would rather tig the larger ones than the smaller ones i am thinking or if you machine them with close tolerences you might hard silver solder the tubes in place...
I am fairly sure that issue 1 just isn't correct.
The vapour speed in all the tubes is exactly the same.
The vapour speed is dependent on the TOTAL cross sectional area, not the individual area of each tube. It is driven by the pressure above the top plate. Vapour speed wise you only need to concern yourself with changes in the total area.
You could substitute all the tubes for a different size and if the total area was the same so would be the vapour speed. There just isn't enough drag caused by the wall surface to make much difference. With thick liquids possibly, but not with vapour.
Talking of close tolerances, what about an interference fit? Undersize the holes and freeze the tubes before installation. When they warm up they get even tighter.
@punkin Trying to use the same size tubes would be very hard. There really is not enough space between the existing tubes to fit more of the same size in there and still leave any space between the tubes. Also I would only be able to fit in like 7 more of the 28mm tubes so this would max out at 87.5% improvement over the starting point and I know I need at least 100% improvement.
Trying to remove the existing tubes and replace the flat surface so I could relocate them would also be very difficult.
No worries mate, we can still take info from what you are doing i'm sure and extrapolate surface area with whats available to us.
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
RDD (just out of curiosity) did you include the surface area of the floor of the dephlegmator between the tubes?
I wouldn't bother modifying your existing condenser at all (if you have the space for a slight extension) just build a copper insert that you can drop into an extra stainless section like this:
Just an impression - you could arrange the tubes better in reality. A multi core cold finger.
(Sorry Lloyd it won't help your product development really)
@myles No I did not include the bottom surface area. Thanks you just made my life more complex.... :(( You are correct that surface area would also be part of the calculation....
I only have about 100mm left of height. I see what you are getting at. Not sure I want to go thru the hassle of building a 100mm add on. And then the external plumbing issues.
Here is the latest. Looking at making a whole new Dephlem. 8" Stainless Shell 304mm long. Making an all Copper Core for it. Copper End Plates and 33x 1/2" Copper Tubes. Will give me 709 sq/in of tube contact vs the original 227 sq/in. 312% of the original tube/vapor contact area. Plus it will be all Copper which should be way more efficient in transferring heat as Copper is 28 times more heat conductive than SS.
Will also move the Inlet and Outlet to opposite sides to encourage cross flow of the cooling water.
@RedDoorDistillery it looks good, personally I think that this last solution would be more than sufficient to ruflux up to about 35 000 watt/ 300mm in height even if it were made entirely of ss, but copper is that you type the optimum ....
The easiest and quickest for you should be to supplement your existing reflux cooler so long, and then you see how your maths in ss stands up against reality and like it is today you have no use for it anyway....
We want to see more videos soon ;-) ... and even changes in the height of the return pipe to minimum-6mm height ... ;-)
Cheers
Gentlemen if if this helps I use a 6" copper depleg that is 650mm long it has 54 1/2 tubes the centre section is not used and has a 3" tube running through the condenser it is feed through 2 1/2 tubes that are on the same side this unit is normally used at 21kw it can and has been used at higher rates I recall it been used at 1000'000 btus my quick calculation is it is using 35meters of 1/2 copper pipe plus end plates this unit has end cap that allows you to be able to remove it the last time I ran this unit I remove the end cap at full load and no vapour was seen escaping also I believe the deferents in heat transfer for copper is approx 3.5 x more than stainless I am making a new heat exchanger in 8" and will be using 1/2 tubes in the above heat exchanger the tubes are very close 3-5mm depending on pitch I used 19 tubes in 3 rows .
Its easier to deal with too much knockdown power than too little. I'm a fan of copper, but stainless can work as well but your ceiling height has obviously restricted your ability to achieve resuts in stainless. When the apropriate conversions are made, there is no reason why the guys wont be able to use the data you collect. I'm sure you'll win Red door.
Thanks for the input Awesome, have you run the CD yet? I have a feeling you won't have the same issues as RD as you have half the number of plates.
I know that Fester is at the moment supplying the condensor factory with some copper to try a new condensor combination from the results of this thread. I don't think the super condensor will be needed for a regular 5-6 plate bubblecap still, but may be for a seive plate still where a stck of plates are required for a fast, neutral offtake.
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
I agree. Super Condenser should not be required for any Bubble Cap setup as you don't need the high power to keep the plates from dumping. Also in a shorter stack Perf Plate you would probably be fine as less power would be required to stabilize less plates. I noticed that the bottom 4-6 plates stabilized at a much lower power input thus needing less condenser.
First off the cd has not been run yet I have been very tempted but as pumpkin knows I've been helping other members with there projects also it is my intention to increase the number of bubble plates by 1 or 2 more modules and mount on a bench or table Lloyd has been working on some additional equipment and as alway I've learnt there is a wealth of information on this forum so I'm guilty of sitting back and watching as I am accumulating my equipment
I've ordered a few extra glasses and paltes and gaskets etc so i have spares and consumables on hand for you in the new sea freight shipment
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
@RedDoorDistillery
How's it going with reflux condenser and its increased efficiency, it becomes a Brand new or an addition to your existing until further ...
It's the weekend again so there should be time for a new batch of distilled guess ..
Cheers
So no distilling this weekend. The next batch is done fermenting but has not cleared yet so it wont be ready to distill till next weekend.
Today we spent all day on the new Reflux cooler. We used the machine at my wifes work to cut the 2 new copper end plates. Took about 5 hours per plate to cut the plate. Each plate is cut from .08" (2mm) copper plate. 33x holes for 1/2" copper pipe.
Video Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV-WAgp41Ow