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- applepie November 2013
- awesome January 2014
- bentstick November 2013
- Bold August 2013
- captainshooch February 2014
- chill July 2013
- cooperville October 2013
- CothermanDistilling April 2014
- cunnyfunt February 2014
- delta_H August 2013
- emptyglass October 2013
- Fluxed October 2013
- fnulnu February 2014
- FullySilenced December 2013
- Geezaboy July 2013
- gixxerpilot750 August 2013
- Grip February 2014
- harley November 2013
- jonno October 2013
- Karl August 2013
- Law_Of_Ohms February 2014
- Lloyd April 2014
- LunaBrille August 2013
- mikejwoodnz August 2013
- Moonshine February 2014
- moscca September 2013
- Mtnmann December 2013
- Myles September 2013
- nvnovrts September 2013
- Philter February 2014
- punkin February 2014
- RedDoorDistillery April 2014
- Smaug March 2014
- spud1700 September 2013
- Stinger August 2013
- Vaya_Con_Dios_Distillery September 2013
- zymurgybob July 2013
Comments
You can see them on page one of this thread.
Oh, sorry FS, I thought you were asking about the DCs for the 8".
The 4" SS perf plates will use the same copper DC as always.
Check with Larry about the special gaskets, he should have 20 in stock even if they are not listed on the website yet.
@reed door destilleri Any updates yeat... ;-)
Cheers
I've used converted kegs in the past. Would you share more about the large rectangular boiler? Wiring? Electronic controls? Etc. Thank you.
8" x 10 Plated Dash purchase put a quick whoopin on the downcomer supply.
StillDragon North America - Your StillDragon® Distributor for North America
Karl, I though he had done that at the start of or during the thread.... it a ss IBC shipping container...
@Karl The boiler is a 350gallon IBC Tote that is made for transporting hazardous chemical. (Make sure to buy a NEW one as you never know what might have been in it before.) It ran me about $2000 USD New.
I cut out 8- 1" holes and welded in 1" NPT Half Couplings to accept 8x 5500watt heating elements. 4 low and 4 higher so that the elements would not risk contacting each other.
I have this supplied with 8x 30amp 240v circuits. You have to go 30amp as each elements draws 22.6amps and you need to over size the circuit by 20% so that puts you at 27.12amps required. Next size breaker is 30amps. 44,000 Watts all together
I turn all the elements on/off at the breaker box except 1. I have 1 element on a power controller so I can control the power from 0-22amps. This gives me the ability to control 0-44,000 watts.
OK. So ran the run today with the new config.
In this 1st video. I was determining how much power I could run and still put the Column into 100% reflux.
1st I tried to run with the Dephlem plumbed IN from the bottom and OUT from the top. 14,164 watts is what I was able to knock down 100%
I then flipped the water around so I was going IN at the top of the Dephlem and Out from the bottom. 14,286 watts is what I was able to knock down 100%
As you can see there was very little difference basically I was able to run 1 more Amp of power. Both ways I had my water supply running full open at 6gpm with 60F (15.5C) cooling water.
In the video you can see that the top 4 plates were having major issues trying to dump in streams back to the lower plates. And the liquid on each plate was in a Foam state which indicates that I did not have enough vapor speed to full break the surface tension allowing is to "Foam"
Video Link : http://youtu.be/jWa3jC7S6Hs
Now that I determined how much power I could knock down..... I started cranking up the power to see how much power it took to get the plates to stop Dumping.
At 21,367 watts the plates stopped dumping. But as you can see I still had a cellular foam style of boil occurring on the plates and they began to look like they were starting to splash up to the bottom of the plate above still not enough power to stabilize the plates.
I tried tuning it back down just 1amp = 243 watts and the plates starting dumping again. So 21,367 is the bare minimum to get the column to stop dumping.
Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUgK_Vpp7hk
RDD if you stacked a second delph directly over the one you have now... would it give you double the knock down power or would there be a multiplier in there somewhere...? if it would double the knock down you would be at 28,000+ watts .. and you should be able to stabilize your column... if i am reading you posts correctly? if not please expound ...
FS
Great Video's by the way
Now that I knew the minimum power to stop the dumping. Now I was looking for the right power to get all 11 plates to settle in and stop the Foam look.
Slowly kept adding more power and the Foam look started to settle down on the lower plates. Kept adding more power and finally got all the plates even the top to settle in and give me the "Froth" look.
27,500 watts. stabilized all the plates finally had enough vapor speed to get all the plates looking the same.
Was striping 167 Proof @ 24L/Hr. from an 8% wash. Stripped out the rest of the boiler like this with very slow water running thru the Dephlem. Added a little bit more flow later in the run to maintain the 167P.
I did try setting the Dephlem wide open at this power and got 175 Proof @ 20L/Hr.
Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY237CQkeRw
Based on the above trials I figure I need 150-200% more cooling capacity in order to knock down all 27,500 watts and be able to minimize the water flow. Technically I only need 100% more as this should be able to knock down 28,572 vs the 27,500 I am running but that would require full open on my cooling water.
@FullySilenced The problem is I am down to about 125mm of height left to the ceiling and another Deplhem is about 204mm......
The current Dephlem had 8 tubes. Each tube gives me about 25sq in of vapor contact area= 200 sq in of vapor contact area.
So now I need to figure out how to add 300 sq in more contact area for a total of 500 sq in. This would require me adding 25 tubes .5" or 16 tubes .75".
Or a whole new Dephlem. 300mm tall with 13 1" tubes vs the 8 it has today. Adding 50% more height and 5 more tubes of the same 1" size would get me to 500 sq in of vapor contact area by my calculations.
a horizontal delph.... same height ... cooling through the tubes width can be anything you want.... never seen one that big but... but i think it would suffice? whatcha think?
Step 1 is finish.. now it,s time for step 2, a lot of more refluxpipe in the refluxcooler and after that step 3….. Rely good work RDD, many ++++ to you.
Step 1
I would have chosen to abandon-abolish the top plate entirely and used the 10pc indefinitely, to se what this “setup” and change is giving... Then I had distilled and seen if this had made any noticeable difference on the plates, in power and output and more.... test it to max.... and film it so we can se it....
Step 2
is to drill in more refluxpipe - cooling pipe and what a can se from here is that you can put in about 12pc pipe and get a good pattern and also have 1pc place left for yours sensor pipe. And also change side of a water inlet ore outlet so the water relly must travel around all pipe-cross the reflux cooler every time even when you have little water going thru this... It is okey with only 4-5mm intervals between the pipe to pipe( it is about 20cm hight from end to end so this little distans-intervals are no constrictions-restrictions) ore the wall only you can weld it watertight at both end.... 12pc more 25mm pipe (inside mm )= 20pc pipe shall give a LOT less wapor speed in this reflux cooler and a hell lot of less pressure, thats for sure.... and you shall save a lot of water... But if 25mm pipe is to big, take 20-22mm pipe instead, a relly dont think that this small differents in pipe size is so important so you dont can test it..... and se the differences ...
Step 3,
Lower the liquid level on all plates to the max, which in your case should be about 6mm, it's what the nuts looks to be the in height ... If you get less than 10mm remain between cup in the bottom of the plate and tube end - cut the pipe at the bottom end so you have at least 10mm apart for maximum flow there ... This should reduce the tendency to weeping considerably and make that the plates can receive take care of more power- more output, but a hope that the return pipe diameter is enough, but it teaches you to see .... You shall never get out 96% from a 5% mash anyway with only 11 plates and 1pc distillation, am note sure that it is possible to get 96% from 5% mash even with 20pc plates if we talking maximum speed and only 1pc distillation... Purity vodka here in Sweden get out about 92% from a 6% mash and with 18pc ( 1pc big caps per plate) big bubbelcaps so they must destilling in 2pc time.... So i think that 2pc distillation is what you need and speed is more important than 1 ore 2% more and to the “price” of speed....so Lower the liquid level to max....and test it... Lower licuidlevel = more power can the plate recive, but it give little less % insted.... Higher licuidlevel = less power can the plate recive, but it give little more % insted... The taste is in the steam and note in the reflux.... This is what am personally shall try later....
Cheers
Additions: why not raise the liquid level to the max FIRST and try 1pc distillation so we all get to see how the column behaves then!
I understand it requires that you cut all of your return pipe a little bit if you have the opportunity to have approximately 6mm fluid level and also have at least 10mm between Coppen and pipe end in the bottom of the tube. So raise then to max before as a test...
Everyone in the commercial world advocating minimal deep trough with sieve plates and then it is with many plates in series on each other and the maximum power ...
And most of them in the hobby distillation advocate a high trough depth, but then there is only a few plates in series on each other and little power ..
So why not try both and form your own opinion ... and all of oss other can se it allso if you film it ;-)
Cheers
This is what a would expect this to happen with 6mm deep trough instead of about 13mm that you have today.
All power values to be moved down about 2000-4000watt ( need less power to note dumping and get the foam look away) and you will need less power to maintain balance on all plates and with this operation so you get a wider range of column functions between both effects, percent of product flow .. better for fine destillation...and it can recive same max power as before, for stripping...
But this we shall see in "real life" after its done...
Cheers
To you all, Remember that RDD have about 10% hole area with 1,5mm hole of the active plate area so this is one of the most "maximum column" that is made outside the Big manufacures.... ;-)
We are making History here ;-)
Cheers
Harley is right, as far as I know Reddoor is the first commercial distiller so far to take a 100% hands-on approach to helping design his equipment and sharing the results with us so that we all can learn.
As he perfects his prototype into his working still we get the rare chance to benefit from his experience and hard data collection.
The positive effects so far have been not only the development of the Crystal Dragons (without his efforts I would still be putting their development off) but finally we are getting the data needed to improve the 8" dephlegmator. What may work well with 4 to 6 eight inch bubble cap plates has proved so far to come up short when working with 10+ perforated plates.
I'll give Reddoor a few more days to think over his new dephlem design before bringing them into production.
It is hard hitting data and customer feedback like this that has allowed SD to improve.
I foresee both regular and super-size dephlegmators on our very near horizon.
Yes, you are on right track here, but i think that if it is in SS then you need to go for smaller pipe, typ 14-16mm inside and a lot more of them and 30cm hight...
Refluxcooler that a have se in ss and for 8-10"column have many, many small ss pipe sitting relly tight together- about max 10mm free space betven all pipe for watercirkulation( you can go down to about 5-6mm only you can weld it in the end ) and they are about 30cm in height.
In copper a think that 1" and 25cm hight and at least 20pc shall be good for about 30 000watt to nock down.
But if it shall be construction-manufacture a new "super" refluxcooler, why note go for max from start..... 300mm hight and maximun of 14-16mm pipe in it, only space for a 100+10mm sensorpipe in the backside( to refluxpanel).... and 4pc inlet-outlet so you can chose side and plugg the 2pc that you dont need.... fully modular design ;-)
Cheers
But first try this with the refluxcooler that you have.... test it....
drill in more refluxpipe - cooling pipe and what a can se from here is that you can put in about 12pc pipe and get a good pattern and also have 1pc place left for yours sensor pipe.
And also change side of a water inlet ore outlet so the water relly must travel around all pipe-cross the reflux cooler every time even when you have little water going thru this... It is okey with only 4-5mm intervals between the pipe to pipe( it is about 20cm hight from end to end so this little distans-intervals are no constrictions-restrictions) ore the wall only you can weld it watertight at both end.... 12pc more 25mm pipe (inside mm )= 20pc pipe shall give a LOT less wapor speed in this reflux cooler and a hell lot of less pressure, thats for sure.... and you shall save a lot of water... But if 25mm pipe is to big, take 20-22mm pipe instead, a relly dont think that this small differents in pipe size is so important so you dont can test it..... and se the differences ...
Cheers
Please note that few factories will weld pipes very close together because its hard to do and easy to cause leaks. They ask for a minimum of 15mm between the pipes and that limits the number of pipes.
I push that limit very often with the product condensers but I pay a premium to do so.
I expect to also pay the premium to get the super-sized dephlems made because the pipes will need to be close to get a lot of them in the diameter.
Here a have about 40pc 18mm pipe ( outside mm and it is 16mm inside) and allso place for 100+10mm sensorpipe in the back and about 10mm distans everywere.... this i think shall be "optimum" in ss and can nock down a lot of more power than this column can recive if it is 30cm hight and in ss.....
What do you @RedDoorDistillery think about this solution.. is it enouth with coolingpipe area!
Cheers
There is a lot of good information here. My gut reaction at these power levels is to switch to copper tubes inside the stainless body. I also would say to go horizontal, and if you were to build a cassette style condenser core - with each tube a U shape. Then you could build the entire core with just a single end plate.
Use 6mm or 8mm copper tubes with the coolant inside the tube, and you can get a massive increase in surface area inside the same volume condenser shell.
Each style condenser has its purpose and whilst this dephlegmator design is great in smaller sizes, I suspect at the power levels you are using it is just too much. I think the limit for the vapour tubes would be 12mm tubes for this style.
However, if those were copper tubes then the thermal capacity of the condenser might be big enough to cope with your maximum power.
It would be worth calculating the surface area to see what the theoretical capacity would be if you were to use copper tubes in the existing design. Just as a comparison to the all stainless version.
@ harley By my calculations your above layout would be either 703 sq in for a 200mm tall dephlem or 1055 sq in for a 300mm long dephlem.
Either way it is well over the 500 sq in I have calculated.
Still thinking thru everything but I think we could space them out a bit more to make manufacturing easier. If we work with 300mm length and only 30x 18mm pipes that would be 792 sq in. vs the 200 sq in I have now. This would be a 300% improvement in the cooling capacity.
I am not really concerned with leaving space for the sensor as I don't see the need to monitor the temp of the water in the jacket. And I can put a shield over the top of the sensor below the Dephlag like you have if needed.
So far I have not seen any issues with the dephlem dripping back on the sensor without a shield.
@Myles Copper transfers heat 28 times better than Stainless. Looking at adding 1/2 or 3/4 copper tubes to the existing unit stainless unit and brazing them on, should require less total tubes and give me better transfer.
I would also suggest maybe the addition of the outlets on the other side of the deflagmator as well once you start welding on it... I think a high/low for in's or out's would help make for more positive coolant flow...
RDD sound like you have the plan...
FS
"I am not really concerned with leaving space for the sensor as I don't see the need to monitor the temp of the water in the jacket"
This i se a big need for, becouse if you dont only want vodka then it is wery important that you can controll yours exact temp in reflux cooler all time and relly get it exact same in temp time after time...
refluxpanel controll is the future....
A little differents in temp in refluxcooler if we are destilling whisky. rom ore anyting ellse with taste and use one 4pc plate sectioner can make a big differents in taste... so this is wery important.
I think that peopel in the future shall by this 8" crystal dragon in 1pc 4plate section for tasted produkts like whisky, rom and more stuff, and allso by 1pc more section in 5plate ore 6 plate version so they can put them together and get about 10-11pc plates to destill vodka allso.... this is the future a think.... and fully modular...
So if a have made this reflux cooler, a have put in 2pc 1/2" treaded conections 10cm up from bottom, one in front and one in backside ( in the 2cm free space in middle) and only 1pc water inlet in bottom and 1pc water outlet in other side in top... than you can turn this around and get low water inlet on different side and allso have conection for both sensorpipe in back and temp givare-monitor in front, becouse you have conections on both side....
So this 2cm "free space" in the middle is relly good and fill more than one purpouse, note only for the same flow in both side on refluxcooler...
If you can get in about 40pc pipe 18/16mm than a think that 25cm hight is enought and with 30-35pc pipe 18/16mm 30cm is a better hight.
But all this is my personally thinking...
Cheers
@harley Reflux water temp can be inaccurate as when you increase the flow it is not directly connected to the output temp of the vapor due to thermal transfer. I would more want to control the Head Temp and use that to control the water flow. Say you want to distill at 140p 70% then you set the control to maintain the head temp @ 80.5C. Let the controller adjust the flow of coolant water thru the run to maintain the head temp.
Why would you want to try and gauge based of the water temp in the dephlem?