The Red Door Distillery and the tale of the 8" Crystal Dragon.....

RedDoorDistillery

Loaded up the boiler tonight with 180 Gallons of 40% strip runs. I loosely packed the tubes on the Dephlag with stainless scrubber material. Tomorrow we will see how the 8" Crystal Dragon does when charged with 40%. I should end up with about 70 gallons of 95.63%. Once proofed back to 40% = 167 Gallons or 800+ 750ml bottles.

harley

This shall be intereasting to se if this modifikation wourks, i think that you can have problem with to "high pressure" his modifikation can give that. But it is "place" for more pipe "in it" maybe up to so many as 12pc more, what a can se if you "save place" for yours sensor pipe.

Cheers

emptyglass

If I may, if you are running the valve on the output, thats good, as it will keep it full, but if you run cooling fluid in from the top, its easy to trap air. If you are sure you have all air out, nothing to worry about, but airlocks knock the efficiency of the condenser around heaps. Its contrary to popular practice, but feed it in from the bottom gets the air out every time you run, as gravity has more effect than the coolest water furthurest away.

A simple way that wont require major mods is to get Fester to supply another reflux condenser and place it above the existing one. Youcould plumb it many ways, run both for knockdown, one fortake off, or plumb in "series" and control it all with one valve.

punkin

Some people charge the condensor from the bottom and then switch the hoses over. Requires two valves is all. Perhaps we need to look at building a bleed port in the top to eliminate air?

RedDoorDistillery

We ran the Spirits run yesterday. We did pull 191 all the thru the run. But the best I was able to dial in was 15L and still stay at azatrope. Everything I tired to boost output dropped the proof. Not sure why the camera would not focus on the hydrometer. We did not get done with the run until 2:30 am this morning but we did collect 60 gallons of 191proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkU6pOgvbnQ

Bold

What was your total run time?

What was your heating up of mash time?

At what percent ABV (or proof) did you stop the run?

Law_Of_Ohms

What target L /hr are you after?

And 60Gal of 95.5% alc !

= 542L @ %40, or 774 bottles

RedDoorDistillery

@Bold said: What was your total run time?

About 15hrs from when I started taking off the heads. 17hrs including final heat up and letting it stack the heads.

@Bold said: What was your heating up of mash time?

Unknown. I put on 1/2 and element the night before started at 20C and warmed up to 70C over night. Kicked on more elements in the morning and got it up to temp.

@Bold said: At what percent ABV (or proof) did you stop the run?

This was a first go at a 2nd run. All the strip runs I went way to far into the tails so started @ 40% in the boiler and stopped when I still had 8% a I was getting tails. I have not need for the tails in my Vodka so I left them in the charge. Was still flowing at 191 when I stopped collecting due to tails.

@Law_Of_Ohms said: What target L /hr are you after?

We were hoping for 18-20L an hour.

@Law_Of_Ohms said: And 60Gal of 95.5% alc !

Yup.. 5 gallons were heads. so really 55 gallons. Bottle strength is 40% so yeah about 650 bottles once we proof it to 40% and then carbon filter it.

Bold

Thanks for answering and her is another question! What is your carbon filter setup amd why did you choose it?

harley

RDD You have no film on the plates behave when they have stabilized?

You need to fix your reflux condenser so it matches the column performance, as it is now so it is suitable for max 11 000watt, which corresponds to the power requirement of a 6 "column.

You need to double the cooling surface at least in the tubes (this is the minimum increase) to match this kolonns performance.

Cheers

awesome

What water flow rate in litres per minute are we talking about here it seems to be very low .

RedDoorDistillery

Still getting weeping problems from the upper plates even after stabilization. Bottom plates are ok up to about plate 7. But plates 8-11 are still weeping. This was with 13,750watts of power. If I went higher on the power the ABV dropped. Flow rate on the Dephlem water was around 3.5gpm.

Next run I am going to try more power and more cooling flow I think. I dont believe I was pushing enough power to really keep the plates fully stable.

FullySilenced

Do you think the Dephlem should be made a little longer for upcoming units... say 3 to 6"inches longer maybe?

RedDoorDistillery

Possibly. It maybe better to have more tubes vs being longer. Or maybe I just need to learn how to run this thing... lol.

emptyglass

Less is often more. Try running a bit slower perhaps. If you cant get this puppy stabalised without entrainment, it's going to spoil things. There is a lot in the settings used. Like you say, it might just be a case of learning what your still wants.

harley

RDD, 3.5 gpm, I get to 13 liters a minute, this is a great water consumption and will be expensive in the long run if you must pay for the water like a must do.

What is the "difference temp" between inlet water temp to reflux condenser and outgoing water temp from the reflux condensor at 13 liters per minute.

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

Input water is 60F outlet I don't know. Both my Dephlag and my Product condenser water mix before I could take a temp of the output.

Smaug

Smaller tubes may promote liquid pile up within the condenser and product surging may result

Smaug

Have to maintain enough room for two way traffic.

RedDoorDistillery

@Smaug said: Smaller tubes may promote liquid pile up within the condenser and product surging may result

We are thinking more tubes of the same size or maybe just a little bit smaller tubes and more of them. If you go to small the small tubes also increase vapor speed which is counter productive to the cooling capability as the steam go by to fast to be condensed.

FullySilenced

I why i was thinking a longer tubes in the Dephlem... rather have extra cooling than not enough...?

awesome

We have to be carful the cooling capacity of a copper heat exchanger is close to 4 times more for the same size in s/s we can always put baffles in the condenser at construction time I agree the more cooling the better .

Smaug

There certainly is more room for more tubes within the jacket.

Lloyd

This is exactly the kind of quality feedback that StillDragon has needed on the bigger columns.
Its also our very first perf plate still in 8" (and times 11 plates). Lots of "firsts" with this one.
So sorry I failed to mention adding scrubbies to the dephlem holes @RedDoorDistillery.
I can't view the youtube video because I'm in China but is a little plate weeping a bad thing or just an irritation as long as the plates stay loaded? Did the top plates stay loaded?

harley

It takes time to allow produce a new version of an 8 "refuxcooler in china, so my suggestion is that the RDD as" demonstrably can weld ss "either by yourself or let someone else in the immediate area complements its existing 8" refluxkooler with so many pipes that he can fit in it with, and even change sides at the water outlet so really the whole cooler must be passed with cooling water always ...

I suspect that weeping can be caused by too little flow - too much resistance in reflux cooler .... and this should greatly reduce with more number of pipes ... and then we'll see if this phenomenon also decreases ..

Personally, I think it should be at Least Twice as many tubes if you have the same size of the pipes and the length of the reflux condenser whether to match the column at maximum power and full reflux ...

This is a quick and easy solution in expriment purpose ... and then he and all other can see how big the difference is directly ... a "good start" to the perfection of this 8 "refluxcooler...

Cheers

Lloyd

A member of this forum took pity on me and sent a copy of the RDD video. Expecting to see the 8" Crystal Dragon in all its glory - popcorn at the ready, feet propped up - I can say NO! We want more!!
I gotta admit though that pulling that much product so fast is impressive but I can only power a 4" still unless I scale up by getting a lease on a warehouse with "heavy" electric.
Ah, but one can dream...

@RedDoorDistillery has been extraordinary in his efforts to help develop the 8" Crystal Dragon. It would not have been produced without him. Now comes the task of fine tuning and making it better. At least now we have something to work with and his input is crucial to further improvements.

Again, I'd like to thank Harley for the original idea, to RedDoor for pushing me into doing it and to Law of Ohms for the skillful drawings that allowed the components to be produced.
I'd like to thank Punkin who sat on the sidelines with a beer in each hand cheering us on.

It this project complete? No. Is it perfect? No. We still have work to do but looking at the video shows how far we have come so fast as a team.

This still is a prototype. It is the very first of its kind. No one is more keenly interested in its performance and how to improve it than I am except perhaps for RDD himself. It is simply fantastic that finally we have a distillery that is willing to give us the hard data that we have been asking for.

harley

I agree with you fully Fester

but if it was note for you, that have "courage" to try new solutions, there was no SD or some of these lovley products ... so thanks Fester for you have the "guts" to try new solutions and make this real. Other copy other, but SD make things.....

This is very interesting for me and hopfully everyone else and RDD should have much, much credit because he sharing his data and experience of this beautiful piece, together we shall optimize it to the max and RDD, thanks again for sharing with your experience so we can work together to "brainstorm" different ideas and hopefully the end result is optimal, but we are not there yet, but we are approaching slowly but surely ....

Personally, it is the "journey" that is most interesting for me! because once it is finished, then it's over ... and then it will be to work-distill with it ... ore look in to something different - bigger ;-)

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

I don't want to start making any changes just yet. Need a few more runs to allow me to experiment with power and reflux controls. The issue maybe how I am running it not the equipment. Having significant weeping issues issues tells me that I have low vapor flow rates so that the the liquid is pulsing back through the tray. Also I seam to be getting Cellular Foam on the upper plates which usually indicates slow vapor speed as well.

Attached is an interesting PPT deck that talks about the different plate states.

harley

RRD,

I have looked many times at your film and also tried to determine how much or rather how extremely small distance you seem to have between your upper sieve plate and the bottom of the reflux condenser ... about 5-6cm, what a can se from here....

What I'm worried about is that the bubbles can hit the bottom of the reflux condenser and then this may mean that the pressure builds up ...

For that is what I think you have a problem with, "high pressure" and when you can not see how it relates between the top sieve plates and the bottom of the reflux condenser then I suspect that this may be one of the causes - bubbles reach the end up to the bottom of the reflux condenser ....

Remove this top sieve plate before using the equipment next time then we can rule out if it was this that was a problem or not ...

It does not feel good to not see all the plates, and above all the most important of them ...

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

Yeah I was thinking that as well. I actually have a bit more height available to me where I could fit 1 more glass in the upper column. Still allowing me to run 11 plates but making the top one visible and leaving about 15cm from the top plate to the bottom of the condenser. But I need to come up with longer rods for the top section in order to allow the 6th glass section in that column.

Also thinking that it maybe causing the Dephlem to work harder as the liquid on the top plate is possibly in direct contact with the Dephlem and not just the vapor.