The Red Door Distillery and the tale of the 8" Crystal Dragon.....

Geezaboy

I bet you were happy. Great to be a witness to the evolution of our interest/hobby.Well done to all involved. =D> =D>

harley

Hi RDD

96% from 5% mash it is actually incredible at just 11pc plates, but only 10 liters I think is a “little bad” and maybe you reflux bit too much!

All calculations that a done and “almost all others” is always from a 10% mash…. And then a think and hope that you shall gets about 15-20 liter per hour.

Is it hard to get good and consistent temp in reflux cooler?

Sieve plates issnt made-good to go with hight reflux, only so little so the plates is working.

I think it looks like you have a little different liquid height on them top visible plates.

I think you "maybe" have too small distance between the top plate and the bottom of the reflux condenser, unfortunately, so you can not see how it behaves there. It feels, looks as if it is built up a little too much pressure and then with higher pressure the return pipes are too small ... I have 28mm return pipe myself…

This with high pressure you should absolutely have NO problem with around 10% hole surface ....

As my wonder is: is the distance between the top plate and the bottom of reflux condenser short - less than the distances between the glass sections ... In that case, I would try to move the plate to the bottom instead if you absolutely want 11st tiles and it is important that all distance are “ almost” the same…

These are just some thoughts I had after watching your video, but the outcome is very good to be the first time and it can only get better with some fine tuning.

Cheers

FullySilenced

Beautiful... did see some large drops on occasion from the plates but i think that maybe normal? and some loaded differently than others in the stack? Maybe mark the plates and see if they always load the same way and then compare them to see the differences...

Huge coolant lines... compared to what i have..

Good Job...

RedDoorDistillery

All these pictures and video were taken during the loading of the plates and compression of the heads. Once I had bleed off all the heads the plates all settled down, the fluid levels were pretty ever from plate to plate and the weeping stopped. Just wish I had been able to pull better than 160 P off from the 5% wash.

Also I think my temp sensors are way off. Need to check them for calibration. Head temp was rock solid @ 80C but the output was only 160 P. So that tells me that the sensor is not giving me an accurate temp.

punkin

Great burp in the middle too. :)) :O)

RedDoorDistillery

Yeah I had just slammed a Coke before doing the video... Was hoping no one would notice. It was about 90 F in the distillery and I was thirsty... :D

LunaBrille

Thanks for sharing RDD! Just curious... Compared to a metal column how it the surface temp of the crystal dragon? More, less, same?

RedDoorDistillery

Hard to tell. It is HOT. One benefit I have found is that because the glass is clear I can use a handheld IR Temp Gun and take the temp of the plate. The glass really does not interfere with the IR Temp Reading. Thus I cant really take the temp of the actual glass. With the Metal column the stainless blocks the IR from getting a temp reading of the liquid or plate and only gives you a temp of the outside of the metal column. Stainless is a poor thermal conductor so the readings never made sense.

To give you an example my boiler is a 14g single wall stainless steel tank. When my in tank temp sensor is reading 98C the outside surface of the tank never reads over 55C even with just a thin layer of stainless between the outside and inside.

I really liked being able to take the temp of each plate with just a quick pull of the trigger on my IR Temp Gun. But I would have to guess that the glass is near the same temp as the liquid on the plate vs the stainless was always colder.

Either way it is still HOT and you would not really want to touch it.

mikejwoodnz

thank you - very generous sharing of the information and the wealth !

emptyglass

You could try stacking it for a bit longer, take off a bit slower, but a nice high proof charge will make your day! 160proof from 5%, first run, not bad! You could try on the next run pumping up the jam a bit, a bit more vapor maybe stop those bigdrips that Fully Silenced noticed. Entrainment is no ones freind. But I'd be proud of that, a lot of effort to get to here. Well done.

RedDoorDistillery

During the stacking of the Heads the 8" Dephlag was not able to knock it all back. I had to back it all the way down to 11,000 watts to stop pushing past the Dephlag. That caused the entrainment problems you were seeing in the video. Next time I will put stainless scrubbers in the pipes of the Dephalg to enhance the cooling capability and see how it goes. Cooling water was 15C and running wide open at 26 Liters and hour and still could not keep up.

harley

How long destillations time have you before you was finnish with this 1000liter of 5% mash.

harley

My next reflux cooler that I will produce will have more and thinner tube (22mm) than the one I have now (28mm), I will also increase the length to 30 cm instead of 20cm so it becomes more efficient to hold back larger effects. Thanks for this info RDD.

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

The 8" Dephlag has tubes that are about 25mm. And is about 100mm long. I already had problems with my old 4" Dephlag as I went to far the other way as it was loaded with about 18 tubes that were 10mm. This caused a different problem as it increased the vapor speed to the point where I again could not knock all the vapor back.

I am thinking somewhere in the middle would be good. 18mm tubes and as many as you can fit. Would create a lot more contact surface area while not increasing the vapor speed. And about 200mm long.

Once I put the scrubbers in the current one I will post the difference in performance.

harley

Thanks Rdd,

A "basic rule" when it comes to the length of the reflux condenser is that the circumference must be at least the length of the water part and I personally believe that it is preferable to several small pipes than fewer heavier pipes for when it might be difficult to cool everything flow in the middle of these rough pipes ... but it is harder and more expensive, require more time to manufacture a reflux condenser in this embodiment. I think you get a better balance in water consumption with more and thinner pipes than fewer and larger pipes too, so it should be easier to control ... a better balance to produkt cooler water supply-need.

Take a look on the 8" copper plate for bubbelcaps, it is about 19pc 16mm hole in it....and it is possibel to put in 6pc 16mm hole more with a good pattern, in this copperplate so it shall be 25pc 16mm pipe, this a must try in my next reflux cooler and in 20cm hight in the waterpart-coolingpart so all 25pc 16mm pipe shall be 20cm long...

cheers

RedDoorDistillery

I agree 25 - 16mm tubes should work. Thin wall tube will transfer the heat better than thick wall and will be faster to react to adjustments. 20cm long would help as well. My concern would be if 16mm is still to small and may increase vapor speed.

harley

15,18 and 22mm is what a can fix here in sweden in pure copper and with 1mm wall thickness, so 18mm (17mm inside) i think can be a relly good size and with about 25pc i think that it shall note be any problem with wapor speed, but maybe 22mm ( 21mm inside) is better and relly on the safe side if it is at least 25pc and 20cm long allso, or what du you think about it.

17pc 17mm have same volym-flow that 8pc 25mm pipe have… so 25pc 17mm pipe is relly more than enough… and this is what a shall go for in my next reflux cooler and off course in 20cm height. I shall use SD 8" copperplate and make 6pc som more hole in it...

RDD are you relly sure that yours refluxcooler is only 10cm hight, it looks on yours foto that it shall be 20cm hight in waterpart what a can se.

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

yeah I totally messed that up. I think it is actually about 20cm in water area. Was thinking it is about 10" tall total that somehow ended up at 100mm... Dang metric system conversion.... It is really 204mm tall.

I had 23pc 10mm tubes in a 4" Dephlem. It is also about 20cm tall. Had increased vapor speed issues with that one.

harley

Thanks for sharing, this is a relly good way to learn from others misstake.

RDD, This by-inch, proof, I have big problems with, so I guess you have the same with cm and percent% ... a bit of a culture shock ... but we will resolve this.

I actually have not put so much time and thought on the reflux condenser before, but my copper refluxcooler is a copy of the SD, reflux condenser, but after your problems.

I have looked a little more on this, and this is what I have come up with! and a think that this solution would fit both you and me at 8 "I believe and hope!

What do you think about this solution.

40pc 18mm (17mm inside) pipe and 25cm (10 inches) long tubes (and a gap all the way in the middle so the flow of water becomes equal part) so you can get into a 10cm long and 1cm big sensor to reflux panel .. mine is this...

RedDoorDistillery

I like it but I would probably increase the length to like 40cm as well. The tubes should be plenty big enough and with the 40 qty to handle the vapor flow with out increasing the vapor speed.

My other thought on this is that at 8" we may need to consider dual water inlets and outlets. One on each side of the Dephlag. I question if the cooling water flow from just 1 side is able to keep an even temp all the way across to the tubes on the other side of the Dephlag from where the water comes in at.

punkin

That's good thinking, i can see where dual inlets would be an advantage, or a single inlet with a couple of internal outlets.

RedDoorDistillery

Internal Outlets? Am I missing something? You not suggesting letting the Deplhag water dump into the column right? LOL. =)) With a 3" ro 4" Dephlag I dont think it is an issue but when you get up to 8" and larger I think you may get uneven cooling with only 1 inlet/outles.

harley

Here I have hand drawn a different solution based on 25 mm tube inside and increased the number from today 8pc which is 25mm inside to 16pc = doubled the number of tubes and intends to also extend all pipes from 20cm to 25cm.

This solution should provide a better and more equal flow of water through the reflux cooler than the last sketch and theoretically this should performance be able to receive more than twice as much power as "original" as the only proven able to hold back about 11 000watt at a water temperature of about 15 degrees.

This solution should be able to hold back just over 24,000 to 25 000watt with 15 degree cooling water ... 5cm increase in length also makes this to ... I think and hope...

(the hole in the sketch is 30 mm for I had nothing less to draw after)

Swedish 28mm copperpipe is 25mm inside, and copper is what a shall use.

I will have my water input into the bottom on one side and the output at the top of the opposite side, I think it is enough with 1 input and 1 output in my case because I really have access to about 8 degrees celcius coolant now at the height of summer

What do you think of this RRD. Vapor rate should be halved against the "original" sd refluxcooler at the same effect-power .

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

Yes. Vapor rate in any tube would be cut in half. And you are doubling the heat exchange surface area plus making it a little bit longer. Maybe bumping this up to 30cm long would be a good idea as well as adding the dual inlet outlets.

harley

The problem I see with having two PC inputs on the bottom and 2pc exits at the top on the opposite side, is that the water always takes the easy way out if it is under pressure and then it can be "wrong road" shortest road .... I think you should have a steam pipe directly inside the inlet as "parts" of the water directly instead ... this shall a have...

This is to increase the length to 30cm in the refrigerator can be both good and bad. good when running full Relux but it can be difficult to control, hight sensitive when distilling common, this is a balancing act and I think I am going for 25cm high reflux condenser, 5cm increase makes lots difference both in reflux length of the pipes and allso in water amount in the radiator.

I will let the manufacture 2pc reflux condenser according to the latest sketch in pure copper and I will also have a 2 "output of the steam on the side so I will save about 10-20cm in height by this solution ...

So this shall be about 35-40cm in total height over the 8" ferules. i shall have 10-15cm for the steam to gather over the waterpart and on the side in topp a 2" outlet.

Cheers

punkin

No i was suggesting something similar to what harley has just drawn.

RedDoorDistillery

You want to flow in from the top and out from the bottom. Reverse to the vapor flow. I tired it the other way and it did not work well at all. You then control the flow on the output side not the input side.

harley

RDD,

When am sitting and looking on SD 8” refluxcooler in theirs site, than I think that it shall be possible to “put in”-drill in about 6pc more pipe in same size ( or a little smaller) as all others and put the outlet-change side of it,to the different side to the inlet…

This small “operation” maybe is what you need to get this refluxcooler to work for you…

Why note try this, that should a have done anyway...

I relly looking forewards to se how much this changes shall doing in real life, i think that changing oulet of water to differnent side shall be doing a lot, but this issnt enought! You need more reflux pipe allso and maybe 6pc is what you need.. who nowe before you have test it.. ;-)

You have 1000liter of mash and a relly big surface that it can be "realease" from so you are relly testing this little 8" to the limit and over the limit....

Cheers

harley

Cooling water must com in from bottom and out in the top, othervise it can be a "airproblem"-airbubbel in top, becouse water have som "air" in it and this can note come out if you dont have the outlet in the top... heat relise air from water...

Cheers

RedDoorDistillery

I have not had this problem. I flood the Dephlem at the beginning and then meter on the output from the bottom. When I tried the water flow in from the bottom and out the top on the 4" it was even less effective by about 30% and had very little knock down capability as what ever passed the bottom just kept going up as the water was warmer at the top.