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In this Discussion
- CothermanDistilling February 2016
- CraigInnes February 2016
- grim February 2016
- jacksonbrown February 2016
- jbierling February 2016
- punkin February 2016
- richard February 2016
- SDeurope February 2016
- Smaug February 2016
- Unsensibel February 2016
Looking for Guidance
Hello one and all!
I am looking to setup a small still in the UK and so I am looking for your guidance. Primarily I would like to start with making gin and then develop other spirits in the future. I have been doing a bit of reading here and elsewhere but have no experience as such, so I have come to you for ideas. The diagram attached is based upon a 150l still with bain marie and agitator but I have also considered the 380l still with agitator but with an 8 inch column. Let me know your thoughts on the system below and what you would improve upon and why. For example would you have less piping? would you have add more bubble sections? Can you add more than one Aroma basket? What kind of heating elements would you use for the bain marie? What set ups do you recommend for controlling the heating elements and for the temperature control of the dephlegmator? What pumps would you recommend for transferring liquids around the distillery, for example from spirit or water barrel to the still or from the collection vessel to the bottling equipment?
I look forward to your comments.
Craig
Comments
Why a column before the GB and not a straight pipe? If the still does not have product that is 100% ready to drink, it should not have a gin basket on it...
@CraigInnes Welcome!
I would recommend reading through the various gin threads here. It'll take some time but there's tons of good information in there.
Not knowing the legal/tax side in the UK, I think the 150L is too small for full-time commercial viability.
On your set-up - the best answer I think is: it depends. Not really sure what other spirits you're planning on developing and what your base spirit is for your gin. Are you planning on making it or buying GNS? In case you're making it, what's the wash you're targeting?
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Like I said, tons of information here in the forums and it'll take time to read through
Thanks so much for your responses, this is the kind of discussion that I require to improve the design. I shall read through the links tonight after work and take from them what I can. The plan is to get a UK rectifiers licence so that I can buy NGS and then make gin. Beyond that I do not have any firm plans as yet as to other spirits but if the still were designed to allow for alternative spirit manufacture in the future it would make life easier. Currently I own and operate a hotel and so the distillery does not need to operate as a full time concern as it is not the only revenue stream that I would have. My research has shown me that there are rectifiers operating with smaller stills in the uk and so I should be able to obtain a licence. I shall pop back with more questions once I have read through the links.
So here is a revised plan, let me know what you think. As I don't need the column I upgraded the still to the 380l bain marie and there is little price difference. The image is obviously not to scale so I have labeled the parts so that you can picture it better.
Don't forget hangers - from the roof or wall, to brace your horizontal assembly, don't let that hang free. It's too heavy, you'll break stuff.
You need another 510mm down pipe, or maybe 2, so that you aren't collecting on a ladder.
Hold on, I'm scratching my head.
The left dephlegmator adds little value.
The left 510mm up pipe adds little value. Is this intended to be packed?
If not, why bother going up at all?
Assuming you are acquiring neutral spirit to redistill into gin?
Thoroughly confused.
Loose the left dephlegmator & 510mm pipe (your plan is to re-distill GNS).
Check with the other folks here if the 4" GB can hold enough herbs for a 380L run. To me it looks like you need a bigger infusion basket. Alternative would be to macerate and distill. That way you can cut out even more cost.
on the 380, put:
option 1:
8" special gasket
8" ProCap plate with some stainless screen (or custom make a perf plate)
8" HP clamp
8" x 510mm straight section
8" HP clamp and gasket
8" x 4" spherical reducer
4" HP clamp and gasket
4" x 2" spherical reducer
2" clamp and gasket
2" 90
2" clamp and gasket
2" x 510mm section (or maybe 2 or three with some 90s to allow movement
2" 90
2" long condenser (2 of these even better)
parrot
option 2 allows you to have a basket made that you could lift out from the top)
8" special gasket
8" ProCap plate with custom botanical basket
8" HP clamp
8" x 510mm straight section
8" HP clamp and gasket
8" x 8" x 4" Tri-Clamp Tee CIP
8" end cap and clamp (should come with 380L)
2" clamp and gasket (on the 2" CIP fitting)
2" x 510mm section (or maybe 2 or three with some 90s to allow movement
2" 90
2" long condenser (2 of these even better)
parrot
Another thought:
If your intent is to re-distill only GNS, why not go with an in-element pot? This cuts the equipment cost down by about 2k EUR
Distillers i have spoken to say the quality of GNS is not really up to the standards they want for premium infusions and they run it through a coulmn once before using it and make further cuts.
This not only alows them to clean it up a bit more but also allows them to say it is distilled in house. ;)
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
Wow, thanks so much for all the feedback, heading back to the drawing board. I'll start by cutting back the height and double up on the GBs. I am sure that I saw something along these lines in a picture here. I would prefer to go bain marie because in my mind it would be easier to keep clean and less chance of damage etc or running elements dry, but what are your thoughts on this from experience? There are a lot of things that the cost saving could be put towards if choosing in pot elements. Also realised from your comments that the gb has 2" in puts and not 4" so that will take further reduction from the 8" pot. I see from some CothermanDistilling's suggestions that some of the parts such as piping are not yet available in the EU. DO you think that it would be possible to order parts also from the US if necessary?
If the GNS is not up to the quality, do you think it best to redistill on a seperate still or use the same still modified to suit both purposes?
Sorry that there are so many errors and questions on my side, I appreciate your help. I have secured a couple of days of free labour making gin on a 350 litre still which hopefully help cement things in my mind. Looking forward to it!
I can make about 4 cases of gin in about 2-3 hours with a 60 liter sankey keg boiler and a 4"x510mm tube packed with juniper and coriander above a 4" SD filter disc... here is the thread with the video.
The GNS I've seen is about 10% heads. If I were you and wanted a gin done in one shot I'd have 5+ plates and a reflux condenser. Run the still with enough reflux to draw off the heads, put it into full reflux, load the basket, no reflux, then collect until the proof drops down to the tails. Collect tails separately and add them to the next batch.
So this includes the low height and 2 gin baskets, think the tee should probably be a 3 way valve. Let me know what you think and if it would work?
Unless both basket are packed identically you'll get preferential flow.
This.
But i would do two operations if it was me.
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
Don't worry, we should have everything that's needed available (some things @CothermanDistilling mentioned, like an 8" x 510mm pipe section are not required). The picture of the Dual Basket setup you are looking for, is this one:
Some hints concerning the latest picture you posted above:
StillDragon Europe - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Europe & the surrounding area
So taking into consideration the quality of the GNS and lots of other points mentioned it might be wise then to build a separate still to distill the GNS first and then operate a second still for rectifying for gin. Here is the next diagram. I haven't costed this yet but have stripped the stills back losing the agitator and bain marie and have added a 4 inch column on still one to clean the spirit before rectifying on still two. Should come in around budget if you guys think it would work. Comments please! Many thanks once again for your input.
I would get samples of the GNS from various vendors and judge for yourself, I believe there are ready to use version out there, at our gin making workshop at Moonshine University, my notes say it was Ultrapure brand.... Also in my notes is that the quality has improved a lot over the last 10-20 years.
I used the 500mm 8" section as a GB, as even 2 SD GB4 baskets will not handle a 380L, they will barely handle a full 50L...
The Math: 20g/l of juniper is a standard number, and my experience is 400grams can fill a single GB4, so you are looking at 20L of capacity per GB4.... I welcome other people's math from their actual experiences, but in my honest opinion, the GB4 is for hobbyists and pilot batches, not any sort of production that intends to have a profit...
Your logic makes sense. However at present the largest diameter of pipe in the eu site is currently 4" that comes in such a length, the options with a larger diameter are 6" by 160mm or 8" by 200mm. I suppose you could clamp 3 or 4these together or get a custom pipe or perhaps easier order it from the US and then get a custom basket as you suggested before. I will play about with that later when back at the computer. This would leave the question of where to get a custom basket?
Also from experience are there any disadvantages of running the custom basket directly above the still?
@CraigICraig for the pipe size available in Europe, just check with @SDeurope not on website doesn't necessarily mean not available
The basket doesn't really have a lot of magic in it. Here in the US, there's manufacturers that can make you one easily
Excellent thank you!
@CothermanDistilling is this along the lines of the setup you suggested? Would the custom basket to fit the 8 inch x 510 be large enough for the 380l? At least for the time being I'd prefer to plan the column still also, as it gives me more scope for future development without having to amend the details of my licence (if granted). Obviously there are still many things still to factor in such as controllers etc for but getting these basics correct first allows me to plan for these and then modify my choices appropriately, so any suggestions welcome. Many Thanks Craig
If you're going with a large 8" section as gin basket, then you don't need 2 condenser
Thank you all! What about an agitator on one or both stills? Would this benefit me? I was thinking for the pot still 1 which will be used for redistilling the GNS. But it would then allow for future development? I now need to start choosing heating elements etc....
Why have you used two reducers instead of just using an 8x4?
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
A very valid point @punkin, I had thought that there was no 8 x 4 on the eu site, but looking again there is so I shall modify that. Does anyone know any cheap software that I can create some scale line drawings of the setup on? I will need these for my licence application. Preferably very simple to use as I have no experience of such things. Had to learn the basics of photoshop just to do the pictures above ;-)
Agitator adds cost saves on heat up time. Will definitively help if you're going for other products as well as it's going to prevent scorching.
Alternative is to continuously pump over during heat up.
Sketch up does piping I think