Auberins Distilling Controller

Kill_Devil_Spirit_Co

Unfortunately whiskey isn't the priority for this distillery so mash tun is on the back burner :/ At least this way I can do decent pilot batch sizes and just pump over to a regular ol' tank with a false bottom if I wanna do off-grain. There's a chance I'll have access to Modern Times', Twisted Manzanita Brewing/Distilling and few other smaller breweries very close to the distillery so that could be useful for the interim.

richard

My feeling is .... There will come a point in time when you want all the bells and whistles, i.e. control here, control there, read this, read that etc. and simply put .... These controllers are the wrong path to take.

Solution is PLC control with HMI display. Here you can personally design it to do what you want it to do and how and when. Obviously this is not cheap (but not desperately expensive either) and is aimed at the larger and more serious plants.

richard

Simple example ....

Unsensibel

@jbierling said: I know for small home setups with one or two elements this is handy, but I have to wonder why this complexity is required for kettles with 5+ elements? Sure, the gadgets and readouts are nice, but I've never found the need for any more power control than flipping elements on or off. Having one element with less wattage than the others gives you even more control with very little time lost in heatup.

What am I missing?

An SSR isn't really that much more effort compared to wirinng on/off switches. The still controller has the advantage that you get a temp display with it.

Kill_Devil_Spirit_Co

@jbierling honestly none of it really is necessary to successfully run a still. I could easily just have 5 elements as simply on/off, a 6th on a pot and use a regular ol' thermometer and be just fine. In my case at least, I'm aiming for dual mashing/distilling and also want to preheat my charge. This means I need something that can actually self regulate to hold a temperature (as opposed to me staring at a thermometer flipping switches haha). If I wasn't concerned about those I probably wouldn't bother with any of it. I've been at this a good 5 years and this my first trip down this particular rabbit hole.

jbierling

Don't get me wrong, if you figure out something that works great and are kind enough to leave the detail on exactly how you did it, I'm not going to reinvent the wheel.

I mash in my BM still on occasion and the problem I foresee is the response time. For instance if I want to hit 160, I need to turn off all the heat at 150 and wait 10 min. If the temp starts dropping the wrong response would be to turn all the heat on. The right one is to turn one or two elements back on and wait five minutes to see the temp stabilize.

I use a PID for reflux temp control which is hard enough to get right. In my case at least, I can't really imagine a PID getting mash temp right. Now, if I had steam (the best) or direct immersed elements (boo), it would be a different story because of the fast response time.

Preheating would be handy but as @grim notes, I'd be terrified of something going wrong. Car crash on the way in to work for example. I suppose if you're just preheating water the worst that could happen is that you steam clean your whole facility, but if something can go wrong it will go wrong.

I probably should have started a new thread. Sorry about that.

Kill_Devil_Spirit_Co

Not at all, all valid and pertinent.

The Auberins at least allow for regulated power and I'm looking at splitting the 6 elements into two groups. That way I can really dial in the power needed for any little pushes or cutbacks. I'm going to have to experiment with the volume of the water bath to find a balance between response and efficiency, I recall a thread about using it to generate steam inside the jacket rather than go full bath. I'm gonna be chucking a fair amount of power at this thing so I'm not sure how much preheating is even going to be required.

The mashing thing is indeed a little bit of a pain but as you mentioned its possible figure out with some experimentation. I was thinking of possibly partially dumping the jacket and replacing if need be, I'll be crash cooling this way anyway. Lots and lots to plan but will be worth it.

grim

That's why I think the Red Lion CSMSTRSX or CSMSTRGT with a cheap tablet is the easiest and lowest cost entry to a PLC with HMI that is accessible to the guy that has some electronics skills.

Red Lion Modular Controller Brochure (PDF)

The software is free, and downloadable from the internet with no headaches (unlike pretty much every other PLC platform that requires licensed software). It's also way easier than the Allen Bradley software. I could configure it only with the PDF manual and had a simple example with HMI up and running in an hour or two. Support any kind of PLC, Logging, or SCADA functionality. Programs over USB - no proprietary cables.

You can buy a number of different PID modules that plug into the backplane, single/dual loop, analog or relay, TC/RTD/4-20ma. The PIDs are configurable through the PLC, and data logged.

You can buy a I/O module with 8 inputs and 6 outputs for to take control from, or control, anything you like.

You can buy an 8 channel Input card for RTD or 0-20ma, meaning you can integrate any industrial sensor.

If you already have serial devices RS-232/RS-485 - it can manage those as well.

The CSMSTRGT/SX are UL Listed for Hazardous Locations (Class I, Div 2, Group ABCD)

It has Ethernet and a build in Web Server for the HMI - which is accessible directly through an IP address from any device on the network. The web page is the HMI, and all buttons, switches, and displays work exactly as they would in an HMI. Given that it's network connected, you could theoretically monitor the HMI from anywhere. I got the HMI to work perfectly fine on my iPhone with no special software or apps, but point to the website. You can import any graphics you want for the HMI displays.

The only negative with the web HMI is that the SX version is only 320x240 and the GT is 640x480. However, this is typical of HMI systems, and while looks a little pixelated, is really perfectly fine.

They have PID modules developed for electric heating elements can monitor heater current draw and report on potential problems with elements failing before they fail.

Was really fun to point my smart-tv over to the address, and have it display a standalone data logging page - imagine having a big board in the distillery showing the real time stats on a huge 50" TV.

Can do email and text messaging for alerts.

Parts come up on eBay often enough to get deals. I've got a rack filled with PID and IO modules, and I don't think I'm into the whole setup for $300.

grim

Tore out everything the other day as I finally got my enclosure and starting to move everything into there to finally finish the MashMaster2000. I originally picked this up to be a still controller - hence the 4 PIDS, but with the still controller working just fine, I'll use this for mashing. Water Fill Control, Steam Injection, Cooling Jacket, Agitator Control, temp and pH Monitoring)

CothermanDistilling

@Kill_Devil_Spirit_Co said: I'm planning on 6x 8kW for the 1000L. I want to be able to exercise the mash in-boiler option so I want one on the top port for liquid temp as well as one in the column for the distilling, even one on the jacket would be nice for monitoring preheating. So I'm now back to looking at a possible twin auberin set up with a 3way 3pole switch

dual auber DSPR210s are $140, a BCS460 is $180... just sayin'

wait till summer and the new version will have relay contacts...

CothermanDistilling

I suggest that everyone looking at the DSPR get an RTD probe, I am having difficulty with the thermocouple being accurate and am currently working with them on it..

Here is the last thing I sent them, they said the terminals on the thermocouple may be causing the problem, even though I have several and all worked fins with the sestos controller:

left overnight, thermocouple has terminals from factory on, screws are tight, no extra wire.

time =  0 min water temp 65.5 DSPR 64.8
time =  1 min water temp 65.5 DSPR 65.7
time =  4 min water temp 64.9 DSPR 70.4
time = 78 min water temp 60.3 DSPR 77.7

clipped off terminals and wired directly to DSPR screws

time =  0 min water temp 60.3 DSPR 66.6
time =  2 min water temp 60.4 DSPR 69.5
time = 37 min water temp 61.0 DSPR 78.4
time = 41 min water temp 61.2 DSPR 92.2

NOTE - the 'Pb' function DOES NOT WORK IN DISTILL MODE! (it does work in MASH mode)

CothermanDistilling

I got a Pt100 RTD and temps are more accurate.. here is a video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erffWpes6b0

grim

For someone looking to get on the red lion bandwagon with me...

RED LION CONTROLS CSMSTRSX MODULAR CONTROLLER AND CSDIO14 I/O RACK @ eBay

This does not include PID modules, but you can find them.

Unsensibel

Tempting! Need to resist buying... Already have too many unfinished projects

richard

From being involved with PLC's for keg machines, I find the best solution is Automation Direct PLC's. Well priced and comparatively simple to programme.

grim

CSMSTR (SX or GT) is a unique beast, it's not a PLC, although it does PLC-like things. It's primarily a PID control unit and data logger with an integrated web-based HMI - yes you can program logic, inputs, outputs and all that, but it would be terrible if that was your primary purpose. If you are trying to automate a large number of discrete I/O functions, go PLC. However in my experience, being able to integrate RTD and Analog outputs in a PLC, as well as programming PID loops, is an absolute headache and major cost. I will say though, buying the red lion at retail is going to be just as expensive. Only surplus, and only if you can get a deal.

I don't know - last PLCs I played with were AB and Keyence - neither of which had any kind of easy PID setup, maybe the P2000 series are easier than the old rigs were. I just know when I fired the Red Lion up and installed the software, once I got the navigation down, setting up the PID loops was point and click. Drag and drop the variables on the HMI screens, and now you can change them in real-time from your phone or tablet. I built the mashing and fermentation HMI screens and most of the code in half a day. (electronics beginners take this with a grain of salt, I've been doing this for 25 years, if you have never done any of this before, none of it is easy).

jbierling

I seem to have found myself jumping on the bandwagon. Network/web is pretty cool.

Are you using CSPID1S0 or CSPID1RM?

Need to find a better 24V power supply than the cheap bricks I've been buying off ebay.

I tried installing the Crimson 3.0 software and it hangs at the splash screen with the registration screen behind it. It doesn't accept any mouse or keyboard input. Windows 10, x64. What OS are you using? Maybe it won't work without a unit connected?

Edit: Apparently there's a conflict with Windows 10's pen and touchscreen inputs. Disabling the devices works around the problem.

grim

Yeah I'm running Win 10 - Crimson 3 - no issues other than the dated UI.

I am using CSPID1RA units - Single Loop - Relay and Analog output.

fusiondust

Thought I would come back and mention that I'm running this new Auberins controller tonight for the first time. It works great! It took a long time to deliver to Canada, and they sent out an email last week saying that there's bugs in the firmware and that we could send it back for update. I decided I can live with it's issues because I'll be buying the new version when it's out anyways. It was a little tricky at first but nothing a few times over their pdf couldn't resolve. I'm impressed. This is the first time I've run without using my DIY controller I ordered from SD a year ago. I think it's worth mentioning in case anyone else is planning on using one of these is that I confused the heads collection mode from distillation mode. I didn't realize that I had to manually flip it into distillation mode. Once I figured this out, it was smooth sailing.

fusiondust

Ignore my previous comment. I started running in mash mode yesterday and didn't understand the manual. Running in distilled mode of lying today and find ding much more enjoyable.

CothermanDistilling

yeah, if you were running in mash mode you were a temp controller, not a power controller... it is almost too easy to switch between modes.

if you are using an RTD, you are probably fine, but the temperature calibration not working right in distill mode got me to send mine back to get re-programmed after using it a couple times..

fusiondust

I'm at sea level and using K-type. When it started dripping when I ran some vodka through for second time, I tweaked the temps under system. I had to do this a few times and realized that the temps overshoot a few degrees while the column reaches equilibrium. I'm fairly certain I have it accurate enough.

I got to thinking a bit about the mashing procedure. I'd like to try mashing in peeled potatoes and water. I could use the distil mode at 20% power just to slowly bring up to temp without scorching the potatoes themselves, then flip it over to mash while I bring up to the next temp plateau for 15 minute intervals, working my way up the temp spectrum and back down converting max starches.

I welcome any thoughts. Will try this at end of March unless someone talks me out of it.

richard

Better call in the Irish pro's... :)]

Sandman

For the DSPR210, approximately how long is the output light on for when set at 50% power?

Mickiboi

50% :)) :)) :)) sorry had a few drinks.

Sandman

Good one, next, how long is a piece of string?

Time question was asked up thread but not answered, kind of curious.

Mickiboi

First page. Right hand side. Number 4. 50% duty cycle. It will be on 50% of the time and off 50% of the time. The piece of string length formula is as follows.

Length = half length X 2. It works on any length of string.

CothermanDistilling

it is a pretty fast flicker, however, the one on the DSPR210 is symbolic from the looks of it, by looking at what is on the SSR, which looks to be on solid but dimmer at 50%, and is flashing at about 5-6 times a second or so when the DSPR is set to 10%, so not sure what the logic inside does, but that is fast enough for any heating element I can think of... it is maybe 4x faster than my BCS

jbierling

@grim, do you know if there are sample CSMSTRSX database's anywhere? I can't believe that anyone trying to use one as a pid needs to reinvent the wheel.

grim

Do you have a pid module yet? Once you plug one in, you'll get access to the PID configuration settings, where it's very similar to a standalone PID configuration, only it's drop downs and fields. I can post a pic when I'm back home.

You'll need to drag and drop the correct tags on the HMI though.