Where would you make the cuts?

popcorn

Normally I would make my cuts and live with it, but as much time as I have put into getting this ready for a spirit run I want to make sure I get it right so just seeking everyone's opinion:

• big boiler-vodka
• approximate 15 gallons @ 35%
• six plates with copper packing above them. running low and slow
• start time 6:00 am
• 7:20 started full reflux for 2 hours
• 9:20turning RC down
• after 10 minutes i adjusted the power to number 7 1/2, it was currently at 5 1/2
• within a minute the temperature started to rise at the RC, and created a fine stream at the parrot 95% 74°C

I'm going to turn the power down to try to get a drip instead of a stream. Dialed power back to 5 1/2 after breaking the full reflux barrier. 5 1/2 doesn't seem like enough. I'm going to turn the power up to six. Still not enough turning up to seven. Finally got it to do what I wanted by increasing the RC water flow just drip drop at the parrot. Going to fill a gallon jug at this point before changing.

9:40-11:45 collected over half gallon currently running at 77°C Power around 6 1/2 (18amps) definitely took some tweaking to hold it where I wanted it. During this time I had to drive both with water and heat. Heat stayed below seven.

Second jar running a small stream 77°C 95% 12:12 from this point left all controls alone. First predictions 4.8L heads & fores, 9.9L hearts from jar 5-18.

Jar  1 put under @ 09:40-11:45 95% 77°C 2.5L
Jar  2 put under @ 11:45-12:25 95% 77°C 0.7L
Jar  3 put under @ 12:25-12:50 95% 77°C 0.8L 
Jar  4 put under @ 12:50-01:10 95% 77°C 0.8L
Jar  5 put under @ 01:10-01:20 95% 77°C 0.7L
Jar  6 put under @ 01:20-01:34 95% 77°C 0.7L
Jar  7 put under @ 01:34-01:50 95% 77°C 0.7L
Jar  8 put under @ 01:50-02:02 95% 77°C 0.7L
Jar  9 put under @ 02:02-02:15 95% 77°C 0.7L
Jar 10 put under @ 02:15-02:32 95% 77°C 0.8L
Jar 11 put under @ 02:32-02:50 95% 77°C 0.9L
Jar 12 put under @ 02:50-03:07 95% 77°C 0.8L
Jar 13 put under @ 03:07-03:29 95% 77°C 0.9L
Jar 14 put under @ 03:29-03:48 95% 77°C 0.8L 
Jar 15 put under @ 03:48-04:09 95% 77°C 0.8L
Jar 16 put under @ 04:10-04:28 95% 77°C 0.7L
Jar 17 put under @ 04:28-04:50 95% 77°C 0.7L
Jar 18 put under @ 04:50-05:20 95% 77°C 0.7L
Jar 19 put under @ 05:20-05:35 95% 78°C 0.6L
Jar 20 put under @ 05:42-06:06 90% 80°C 0.6L
Jar 21 put under @ 06:25-07:00 87% 97°C 0.9L

• Runtime: 11 hrs 35 mins
• Volume in boiler: 55L 35%
• Volume collected: 16L
• 29% of what went into the boiler came out

At jar 19 I noticed the % starting to rise enough to read the numbers not a hole point but definitely up some still @ 77°C. Drained parrot so it will take extra time to refill parrot. After the parrot refilled the temps went up 80°C 89% still on the same jar waiting to fill. The temp rose slowly and the ABV dropped slowly all on this jar.

Decided at 6:02 PM I would turn the RC water flow up, drop the stream at the parrot down to drips drop temperature is down to 78°C waiting on enough fluid to flow through it to change the percent should have turn power off and left the RC waterflow alone cleared parrot again column is re-stabilizing.

At 6:25 I decided to shut the RC down all the way turned the power up to full (23A?). Put a big jar underneath and collect for the next hour.

Shut down immediately after last move 97°C 20% 0.5L.

popcorn

Note: abv was not temp corrected

FloridaCracker

At least let it air out for a couple of days then make cuts. Are you looking for a total neutral or one with some flavor?

popcorn

I'm going for neutral, but not willing to do a third distill at this moment. I personally know no one can really make your cuts for you unless they took part in every aspect of the procedure. I'm just new to vodka and want to make sure I didn't get to stingy I've never really ran so slow and compressed the spirit so much.

Anavrin

From my experiance I would suspect just over half of what you collected will be clean neutral, If you have 16 litres, let it air for a day or two like @FloridaCracker said, then start watering samples of the jars to drinking strength and tasting to see where your cleanest cuts are.

I'm quite critical when making neutral and based on what you've collected I suspect my tastebuds would find upto the first 6 litres will be heads, the next 8-9 litres Hearts, the rest will be tails.

As a rule of thumb for neutral I expect from a boiler charge to find the first 30% is heads, the next 50% is hearts and the last 20% tails.

So in your case you had 55litres at 35% giving 19.25 litres of potential alcohol.

So roughly when collecting at 90%+ First 6 litres heads Next 10 litres hearts Last 4 litres tails

Obviously you don't collect down into the tails, hope this helps.

popcorn

Thanks for the info. Very useful

Anavrin

Let me know how you get on and if your results are similar to my predictions please.

I'm sure it will be similar but everyone works a little different so it will be interesting to hear how you got on and where you found your hearts.

punkin

I've only ever done neutral in a VM column, but the heads are closer to 10% than 30%. Sounds more like potstill territory.

popcorn

See this is where my confusion comes from. I read that if you can reflux for around 2 hrs in full reflux then slowly draw off for the next few hours like drip drop no stream, then you should have really compacted the fractions or for a lack of better terms concentrated them making the heads cut a lot less.

punkin

That is certainly my experience. I would be extremely surprised if you found 30% heads.

popcorn

What's your method for detecting heads. I go with the strong sweet smell = the first fraction off. Then switch to the harsh burning smell. Both being tested after watering down to the 30-40% range after that I usually find the almost clean smell which is where I start my hearts cut at.

popcorn

This run was hard to find that switch at least at first testing it was, I couldn't seem to nail down where the cuts were in the front so I capped everything and put up for a later date. My tails cut seems to be pretty easy I say 1 hat before the temp change came about

popcorn

1 jar

punkin

I've never been able to cut by smell so i can't advise. I've always cut by taste.

popcorn

What do you taste for

punkin

Heads? :))

Hard to describe, but i certainly look for the transition where the sweetness drops out and it goes to a neutral bland taste. This is very close to cut points for me.
Starts after fores in late heads when i first start to taste as nail polish remover, then goes into harsh sweetness, softer but sweeter sweetness and probably a couple hundred mls after the sweetness is gone i'm into what i consider hearts.

popcorn

Thank you for your explanation. I will revisit the jars over the holiday and make my final decision.

Anavrin

Perhaps I have fine tuned tastebuds, as even running my VM setup, I still found I could detect heads in the first 30% collected.

Ethel acetate and some other esters can be detected even when it's only a few parts per million, I've never been close to compressing heads into the first 10%

FloridaCracker

Try the eyeball test. Works for me on neutral, whiskey and rum.

popcorn

The eyeball test I thought that was a myth. How do you do the eyeball test?

punkin

Tip some in your eyeball?

popcorn

Doesn't sound very fun

punkin

@Anavrin said: Perhaps I have fine tuned tastebuds, as even running my VM setup, I still found I could detect heads in the first 30% collected.

Ethel acetate and some other esters can be detected even when it's only a few parts per million, I've never been close to compressing heads into the first 10%

No worries mate, in no way am i saying you are wrong. I'm only saying that most people will have different views.

fadge

I will add my twist on cuts..

Every run l do is different, sometimes l can separate heads or hearts really easy other runs l have to air a day or so to be able to smell or taste the difference.

I'd guess some batches had too much head's included that others had but overall l blend them together anyway. 50% of the total run collected should be hearts seems to be accepted but l disagree, it could be 70% or even 30% depending on how or what you are running.

The easy part is fermentation then distilling, the craft or experience is the cuts and blending. Remember cuts are just a opinion based on either taste or smell or even %...blending takes a skill and after only a few years l have very little real world experience to offer much advice on this except never throw good heads or tails out if you are looking at a making a half decent product like whiskey or rum. They need some profile or blend the cuts to really be good. Straight product is bland at the hobby level if using sugar wash or usjm style fermentation recipes.

But , You'll need a half decent product before considering oak or aging.

I've stuffed many litres of product, but also managed to collect some really good stuff at the same time.

Bubble plates are totally different to pot stilling, cannot compare yields or jar numbers.

At the end of the day you have too go with gut feeling, if in doubt not keep it.

Cuts are the bugbear of this entire hobby we have, the pro guys may operate slightly different but still have to do cuts or have a system to automate part of the process.

Fadge

FloridaCracker

@popcorn said: The eyeball test I thought that was a myth. How do you do the eyeball test?

Pour some in your eye. If it burns, there's heads still in it

No, just kidding. Put a small amount in a SMALL glass where the spirit is about 3 or so inches from the rim. Swirl it around and then lower your eye to the rim. Keep it there for a few seconds. If you feel a burn, there are heads present. No burn, you are into hearts. Of course everyone's eyes are different but it works for me and since I compress the shit out of heads, the transition to hearts is less than a parrot full (200 ml). When I think I am close, a lot of times I will just take the sample out of the bottom of the parrot.

Try to find a glass with a small opening, not much bigger than your eye and it will work better.

grim

@fadge said: The easy part is fermentation then distilling, the craft or experience is the cuts and blending. Remember cuts are just a opinion based on either taste or smell or even %...blending takes a skill and after only a few years l have very little real world experience to offer much advice on this except never throw good heads or tails out if you are looking at a making a half decent product like whiskey or rum.

Respectfully disagree, mashing and fermentation is the single most important components of the process. It doesn't matter how good your equipment is, how experienced you are making cuts ... so goes the ferment, so goes everything else. Distillation, by definition, will not create something better than what you've started out with.

Regarding automation of cuts, impossible unless you have nearly perfect batch consistency. No sensor is going to tell you what your sense of smell and taste doesn't already know.

FloridaCracker

I'm always paranoid about keeping any heads. On whiskey I will add back quite a percentage of tails but on rum I have found very little in the tails that I like. Maybe with more maturity I can overcome this but for now the shit I'm making works for me. Might make others puke but hey.

I see both points here. Bad ferment, bad end product. Also, great ferment, fuck up the distillation/cuts and bad end product. If this stuff was easy, everyone's stuff would taste the same.

Anavrin

Maybe someone should start a thread, about how to best compress heads, I've a feeling when it comes to compression that the bigger diameter column you have the more efficiently the heads can be compressed.

Mainly just by my theory a bigger still with more plates will hold a lot more liquid during a run and be better suited to allow the heads to compress while in full reflux.

With a short 2" still there's probably not much point spending a lot of time in reflux trying to compress anything but with a 5"+ still it would be worth your while.

At least that's how I imagine it, someone pleas jump in and correct me if I'm wrong

grim

I know it's gospel on many distilling forums, but I'm a rabble-rouser, so...

I'm not so sure that long periods under 100% reflux are beneficial if neutral is your goal.

I mean, it sounds plausible and all, where run speed correlates with product, and the overall slower is better approach. I suppose the next logical step would be to apply this to refluxing/stacking, and assume slower/longer is better.

However, this doesn't take into account increased esterification due to refluxing under heat. My esterification bench trials are showing that ester formation is correlated with reflux time. Longer periods, higher ester in the distillate.

Also, given typical reflux ratios, we're turning over the contents of the column probably dozens of times every hour. Someone that has thermometers at every plate should measure the time it takes for the column to equilibrate and stabilize. This should be all the time necessary to stack.

I bet you what we're going to find is that there is a tradeoff, where there is an ideal time, any longer risking increased esterification.

In addition, the esterification will continue through the run, so total time under heat is going to have an impact, I really feel that it's going to be possible that running too slow may introduce other negatives.

popcorn

Interesting theory

popcorn

I have ran the same set up as described above a little faster, and could not achieve the 95% for much longer than the fore shots. Going with the slow and steady method I was able to hold it at 95 pretty much the whole run.