Aging Help

Johnboy

So i currently have about 25L of UJSSM @ 65% aging in the barrel i got from @punkin some of it went in white and some went in after some time on dominoes. All up its been aging for around 2-3months the colour is piss yellow and it has some harshness about it still but leaves a nice aftertaste. I doesn't have that nice mouthfeel yet either.

I have 6 flagons of pugirum 2 of each 50% 55% 60% one set with 1 French domino the other set with 2 French dominoes trying to gauge if less oak for longer is better and if ABV affects final flavour. Some have coloured faster than others a couple have gone cloudy, after nearly 4 weeks the colour is about right and it isn't okay yet nor has it smoothed out much.

I have 2.5L of DWWG @ 65% on 2 dominoes each of Heavy and Medium char American oak, after 2 days it is colouring up nicely and tastes very different to the UJ (much smoother)

Lastly i have some 1L mason jars with UJSSM, Rum and Neutral in them trialing the sample pack i scored they are all colouring nicely and can really taste the specific flavours coming through, flavours that aren't evident in the other Domino flavoured samples.

So how do you guys determine the correct time to pull off the oak? How do i get that nice mouthfeel? Any other tips that can help me not cock up the first couple batches after all the hard work so far?? Some threads say they leave on oak for 5-6 months others say weeks so it seems that there is no real science to it just taste and decide. I back sweetened some rum and it tastes quite nice but no real character is that the recipe or more time on oak required? The rum with the vanilla sample in it is a real stand out so far but its only 3 weeks old.

I wish we were all closer together so we could just drop in and compare notes tastes etc would make comparison so much easier. Sorry for the rambling I spent about 3 hrs tasting and smelling all the samples tonight trying to get my head around it all. All samples except one are still as they were. That one seemed to be a lot darker and cloudy, slightly oaky. I added about 5ml of Glycerine to one of the cloudy samples to help bind the tannin to the alcohol molecules better it cleared up a little but not like the other samples.

Anyway if you have any advice you can share please do so.

Cheers Johnboy

grim

New or used barrel? If used, piss yellow is probably what you would expect after only 2-3 months, probably stay piss yellow longer yet.

IMHO, small barrels and high entry proof are a perfect recipe for an astringent tannin mouth bomb. Check what some of the craft distillers are doing, especially award winners. Hint - Look for photos and zoom in on their barrel racks - they usually have the entry ABV written on the heads. There are a number of good whiskies in small barrels going in as low as 52-53%

Entry abv% and end flavor are absolutely related.

Also, color and flavor are not related. You can have a rich mahogany whiskey that tastes like crap, or a piss yellow rum that is absolutely fantastic. This is why many commercials adjust the color using caramel coloring. Because if they pushed for color to catch up, they'd lose the flavor.

Sample to tell, but not in a 3 hour session, no way your taste buds can discern anything after three hours of onslaught.

Go for flavor... If you don't like the piss yellow but love the flavor, pass it though some carbon to remove the color (aka Bacardi) or add some caramel color until you have it the perfect shade. Skip the glycerin though, that's just cheating!

Johnboy

Barrel is used bought it for rum but had a heap of UJ so in it went I have a 25L brand new barrel coming in next week or so will transfer UJ into it the put Rum in used 50L would you reckon mend dropping ABV when i transfer it over?

punkin

When we used the barrels we would use two methods. Both worked very well.

We would try to age 65% UJSM for 3 years in each barrel. It would then be pulled 4 shengs at a time and aged for 4-6 weeks on dominos to add further colour and some more oak flavour. We found that the barrels added vannila and maple that just went much further than the dominos, but that after first fill they needed some help with colour mostly but a roundness as well.
The 4l jars when ready would then be tipped into a 10 sheng stainless vessel for blending consistency. This had a bunch of well used dominos in it.

The other method we used when we'd given away too much and couldn't keep the 3 year cycle going was to fill a barrel and begin at the stage you are at, 3 months or so to take the 4 shengs and complete the cycle above. Keep topping off the barrel as you go in a solera fashion.

In the end we found there were qualities given by the barrels that were not given by the dominos and vice versa. Combined together they were outstanding and very much better than either alone. B-)

grim

If you are going to lay her down for 3 years, start with a 53 gallon barrel. That way when you get to the 3rd year anniversary, you might have something left to celebrate! :))

I like the idea of starting with a larger barrel for the Solera, maybe something like a 15g or 30g. Put in the legwork to get it filled, and then start a regular rotation of removal/addition. Hard work to fill will definitely be rewarded in time. The batch consistency will probably be fantastic too.

What's a sheng?

punkin

Universal distillers measurement. Roughly equal to a US pint/liter

FloridaCracker

Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to give absolutes on aging with oak or barrels as there are so many variables. Case in point: The barrel that you got from Punkin has obviously been used at least a couple of times. That's fine, just augment it with dominoes. The barrel will still breathe and give you the "aging" that you want, just not so much color or oak flavors. Easy enough to make up for. My barrel that I just got about 6 weeks ago is totally different; Only used once before I got it, I only left my rum in it for 4 weeks. Got a nice mahogany color but I was too skeered to leave it in any longer. I am finishing it in jars. I fully expect my next batch to need more time in the barrel and more time on the run after that. Flexibility will be your friend. As Smaug has said before, trust your nose and taste buds.

Johnboy

@FloridaCracker What is your standard average procedure with rum on dominoes?

FloridaCracker

Before I got my barrel, I would let the rum air for at least 2 days and sometimes more. Then I would run the full strength stuff through the US unit for a total of 24 minutes. Cut to 60-65ABV with distilled water. US again. I experimented with tossing a domino (French Oak) in the US during the last 8 minutes of the treatment and found that it was not needed; for reasons that I can't explain, my rum that has been treated with US colors up very quickly. It may just be the time of the year here (been very hot) or maybe something with the US. Keep a very close eye on your jars or barrel contents. Use your nose and tongue. I have had some that got VERY DARK, VERY QUICKLY and some not so much. I have had my best success with the second use of the dominoes. Seems to have less of an oaky flavor, smell which makes sense. I wouldn't recommend oaking over 65% and I wouldn't recommend using a new barrel for rum. Let the UJ take some of the tannins out first. Tannins in whiskey are more easily tolerated than tannins in rum. I only filled my 15 gallon barrel halfway full on my first use. Lost about 8%abv which considering the size of the barrel and all of the airspace was kinda expected. Took most out at 4 weeks. Nice amber color at 57abv. Have fun with the experiments! This shit is so cool to me and so far over oaking seems to be the easiest way to fuck up a good spirit. Keep an eye and nose on it and you will be fine. Forget it in a corner and you will probably end up drinking a plank.

Johnboy

Cheers for that kinda what I was thinking give it 4-5 weeks then start paying attention. How many dominoes per litre are you using?

Johnboy

My 5L ultrasound is 165w I've been giving all my spirits a 15 min rev up at full strength. Also some of the spirit has excess tannin in bottom of the jar that keeps settling out what's the best way to filter the finished spirit with out losing taste or colour??

fadge

This aging and oaking we do has so many various methods discussed and used, little surprise it so hard to find the "best" way to go.

Most likely none of us start with the same wash, nor distill or keep the exact same cuts, all have different taste requirements and often time constraints.

Some choose to age for a reasonable time time, aka slow and steady, or quickly with small batches and dominoes, or a combination of barrels and added oak.

I've tried quite a few ways and still have not quite settled on a long term method as yet.

I've got whiskey in 50lt demijohns with a handful of dominoes in there ranging from 6 to 18 mths "old" that appear to be doing ok.

I also do small batch 2 or 3 lt jars on dominoes often used several times and perhaps add one new one each time, that come up very nice that I then add to a stainless 50lt blending storage barrel that is my current drinking stock.

This US treatment that is going on also appears to be another way to adjust or improve our product.

Now @punkin has tossed in liquid oak, that's going to be interesting as well.

fadge

yurgle

@grim said: IMHO, small barrels and high entry proof are a perfect recipe for an astringent tannin mouth bomb. Check what some of the craft distillers are doing, especially award winners. Hint - Look for photos and zoom in on their barrel racks - they usually have the entry ABV written on the heads. There are a number of good whiskies in small barrels going in as low as 52-53%

Entry abv% and end flavor are absolutely related.

That's a great tip @grim and I will now spend days trawling through distillery photo galleries! I would love others thoughts about ABV for whiskies into new oak 5 gallon barrels if anyone has experience? Thanks.

Johnboy

Seems I need a stainless blending barrel or 2 that way I can doctor to suit my needs

FloridaCracker

@Johnboy said: Cheers for that kinda what I was thinking give it 4-5 weeks then start paying attention. How many dominoes per litre are you using?

I would start checking it after 2 or 3 weeks. In jars it is pretty easy. In barrels, get a thief. After all of the hard work, it would suck to let it go too far. Funny, some guys can get away with many months without harm. Whatever I am doing different prevents me from enjoying that luxury.

As an aside, I have had rum that had a pretty strong oak flavor/smell and it slowly went away with time. I remember Punkin claiming that rum can take between 6 months to a year to lose the oak overtones. That's exactly what happened with that batch. Maybe I am a little paranoid that there will be some residual oak flavor that won't go away. I'm sure that the most complex rums start out pretty oakey.

I use one average size domino per liter. Second use on the domino obviously takes longer.

crozdog

I add dominos based on weight instead of quantity. Typically I use 10 grams per litre.

Johnboy

I pulled everything off oak the other day with varying levels of colour and taste despite have identical time on oak. Let it air for a few days and did a little blending pulled a couple litres of very nice rum slight vanilla taste due to some of the vanilla dominoes i scored off @punkin. It has a faint oakiness very faint Im hoping that will fade away with some time. gave a bottle to a mate who is a pirate and he loves it reckons as good as a bought one!!! So Im very happy with that for my first batch. Can only get better!!I love this hobby!!!!!

Smaug

Nice.

WTG.

Kdog

I had aged some UJSSM on some charred American white oak that I purchased off eBay. The oak sticks were specifically made for aging spirits. I tried varying ABV's from 50%ABV - 70%ABV. I tried varying square inches of oak as well, based on some calculations of a 53 gallon barrel square inch calculation. All had a very oaky smell and taste in the end, very discouraging and a lot of effort for shit results..

I'm thinking maybe a sugar wash can't be aged to taste like a commercial bourbon (Four Roses small batch or Elijah Craig)? Does an all grain wash age better with sticks or small barrels? Has anyone gotten good true bourbon flavor using sticks or smaller barrel?

I'm now doing some all grain wash and collecting it up to put on some oak sticks or a smaller 2.5 gallon barrel that I soak in distilled water over night to remove some of the tannins and strong oak flavor before I add the spirit. Anyone have any luck with this? Maybe you have to use larger barrels to get that true bourbon flavor? I'm a little discouraged but pushing forward in hopes I can obtain some decent results one day! All and any help welcomed! :D

bachman

I have had great results using SD dominoes. 1 stick per liter for about 8 weeks.

Kdog

Do you soak them at first before adding the white whiskey? Are you using a sugar wash or an all grain wash? You get a good flavor not oaky? I have some SD dominoes just haven't tried them yet because of the first failure....

bachman

I do all grain and just drop them in. No preloading. My friends and I really enjoy my bourbon

grim

All-grain, I don't understand corn-flavored rum.

FloridaCracker

Another endorsement for the SD dominoes. They are tried and true from people here who have tried a lot of oak. I don't know what you got on E-bay; could be good stuff, could be garbage and it will make a huge difference.

Also, after removing the oak, let it air again for a day or two, leave some air space in the jar and let it sit for a few months. I bet you will be surprised. That is, assuming that what you used was good oak.

I have charred some of the dominoes on all sides, and just one side. Fully charred seems to be my favorite, just toss them into the jar but be careful that all of the smoking has stopped first!__

grim

I second the char, but be careful about char in the jars. It's very easy to cross the line into tasting like a campfire.

Kdog

@FloridaCracker said: Also, after removing the oak, let it air again for a day or two, leave some air space in the jar and let it sit for a few months.

So you do soak your oak in water first and then let it air dry a day before adding it?

Kdog

I will give the SD dominoes a try and see if I get a less oaky taste and more bourbon.

punkin

I've never heard of anyone soaking domino's in water. Some have tried sherry or port.

Kdog

I just thought soaking them in water first would remove some of the initial harshness..

Unsensibel

No. The harshest it's going to get extracted through alcohol. Time is the differentiating factor. Make sure to not leave it in there too long or the oak will take over

FloridaCracker

@Kdog said: So you do soak your oak in water first and then let it air dry a day before adding it?

No, I just toss it in. I figure that the inside of oak barrels don't get rinsed so....