Oaking Rum and Flavoring

grim

Never mind, one is by weight and the other by volume. Who was I to think the TTB would make sense.

CothermanDistilling

The BAM is the ruling document from what ex-ttb agent Dave Dunbar told us way back when... the BAM provides clarification but everything can be traced back to the CFR...

So here is the "Coloring/Flavoring/Blending Materials" chapter of the BAM (PDF)

It says 'by volume' a half a dozen times..

And here is the corresponding CFR27 m the actual 'federal regulation'...

There may be added to any class or type of distilled spirits, without changing the class or type thereof, (i) such harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials as are an essential component part of the particular class or type of distilled spirits to which added, and (ii) harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials such as caramel, straight malt or straight rye malt whiskies, fruit juices, sugar, infusion of oak chips when approved by the Administrator, or wine, which are not an essential component part of the particular distilled spirits to which added, but which are customarily employed therein in accordance with established trade usage, if such coloring, flavoring, or blending materials do not total more than 2 1/2 percent by volume of the finished product.

Extra credit: look at the entry for vodka in both of those links... note the vagueness in the CFR and the detailing in the BAM...

grim

Yep, Dunbar says it all the time, BAM is NOT the law.

GD50

Related to this discussion what is the best sweetening agent to put in gin ? The reason i ask is my daughter bought her favorite Wild Gin on her visit and i tasted it and it was a little sweet compared to mine. The flavours were similar as mine is kind of based on that profile. Sugar Glucose Corn Syrup etc. Its not necessary in the final mixed drink but in a straight sip test it seems to work OK

GD50

I just reread some of the Mouthfeel thread and the one i forgot was glycerine. I certainly wont be adding much but worth a try.

GD50

@grim I just saw your post in The Big Gin Thread from January and it pretty well confirmed and answered my question.

Sam

I know this thread has been inactive for a little while but I figured its better to tag this question on here rather than start a new thread...

I'm just starting my first generation rum so am a complete newby to it, I have done lots of reading on the fermenting, recipes, dunder and ageing. However, I do have two questions which I just don't seem to be able to find an answer to...

The first is around the still set up, I have read threads where people make their rum on pot stills and others on reflux columns... I am fortunate enough to have a reflux column and also a pot still set up with a whisky helmet so have the flexibility to go for either option. I'm curious as to what configuration most people make theirs and what the impact on the end product is likely to be...

My personal preference is for the lighter style spirits and not something overpowering that has to be drunk with coke. I have been thinking about doing the stripping run set up as a pot still but it is the spirit run where I am coming unstuck, I am probably leaning towards operating the refulx but with only a few plates (its a six plate column) but I am unsure how many plates to put in or if I should do the spirit run on the pot still as I'm worried to much character will get lost if I go with the reflux option...

My second question is around White/Silver rum (I am particularly partial to a Mojito & Pina Colada), am I right in thinking that this is just aged similar to a golden style and then filtered to remove the colour? Does anyone have any experience in making white rum as I can't see much about it in the forums. I have read the Buccaneer Bob & Hooks Rum posts in other forums but most people just seem to gloss over white rum and focus on the golden and dark rums.

Appreciate the help!

Smaug

Hi Sam,

Your approach is fine imo. You're never going to know for sure unless you try every iteration.

Some folks love Lima beans and don't care for kidney beans,,,if you see my meaning...

@CothermanDistilling has implemented a rum program.
He'll be along to chime.

CothermanDistilling

I would say to practice, practice, practice... use bread yeast and crappy feed-grade molasses if you can get it, to get your experience if you want to save some money... then when you have a good handle on the process and you can repeat your results over and over, try a different, more costly yeast, and a more costly molasses... Then, after you have all that down like clockwork and grandma baking her 10,000th batch of cookies, play with dunder...

I would strip in a pot and collect/age low wines for a month, then do a spirit run of 3-4 plates before putting in a barrel for long term..

I would use 6-10-20 plates and an hour of full reflux before taking hearts to make stuff that will only be in a barrel for 6 months or less...

@grim has used carbon to strip color, I may do in the future, as we have some large barrels put away now, and that is the only way it makes it cost effective...

I see Newcastle in your profile..... fun times, went there in the fall of '88 on a patriot missile battalion exercise called 'Salty Hammer'.. Our ship coming from bremerhaven, the MS Winston Churchill, took 3x the normal time because of 30-40' seas... a thousand people including the crew barfing over the rail... we were good until our booze ran out, then we joined them... I think a ferry capsized in the channel during that storm... If you take holiday to Florida, look @smaug and us up... he is near Miami, and i am near Tampa..

Sam

Hi guys, thanks for your comments, I am actually likely to be over your way for work either late this year or early next so may well take up your kind offer and come say hi. Re. Newcastle I am sorry to tell you that despite hailing from near Newcastle in the UK I am now near Newcastle in Australia so about 20,000 km’s down the road... That said if you ever find yourself in Aus head up our way as the Hunter Valley wine region is just down the road and makes for some exceptionally good days out drinking wine.

Being at the start of things I will just keep at it practicing and get things down pat. I got my molasses from a stock feed outlet locally and saved $50 over going to the health food store, a saving which will definately add up over time. With the yeast I did read on another forum someone doing some experimenting with different types where they concluded that an ESB yeast tasted yielded the best results. I am planning on using that for mine as I figured there has to be a balance between cost and quality and if I do everting on the cheap it will be hard to know when something isn’t right if it was something I did or not. I also figure I can reuse the yeast a few times which will keep the cost down.

At this stage I’m not going to worry about a live dunder pit but may well at some point when it gets a bit warmer in a few months.

@CothermanDistilling what do you mean when you say you would use 6-10-20 plates? I’m sorry, being relatively new to everything I sometimes get a little confused by all these terms and meanings, it’s like learning a new language at times!

punkin

And Newie is just a 4 hour road trip to the Dragon's Lair in Australia too.

Sam

@punkin I did think about you a couple of weeks ago as I drove through Tamworth on my way to North Star but sadly didn’t have time to drop in and say hi. I was a going to message you about getting some oak dominoes

punkin

I haven't lived in Tamworth for nearly 2 years now mate. Shop is in Woolgoolga NSW.

crozdog

Hi @Sam there's lots of possibilities with rum, various molasses, adding sugars or not, various yeast, then different stills and distillation practices; don't forget cuts and ageing as they also play a big part.

I usually do a mix of feed molasses and sugar (a 20l bucket of molasses to 25kg sugar made up to 180l in a 200l fermenter) for a lighter rum. use rum yeast and do a single run with 4 plates on a 50l keg boiler (4 runs). don't run too fast or you'll get a hotter spirit. lots of flavour at 90-92%. collect down to 80-85% making good cuts. age on dominoes.

I sometimes add a 500mm packed section on top of the 4 plates and get a lighter product - still big on flavour when cut back to 40% for drinking. I've sometimes cut that back with 40% vodka to bring the flavour closer to a commercial white rum - especially for cocktail mixing. It's great in summer with a splash of juice & lemonade on ice.

Sam

Hi @crozdog great advice as always. My mashing is coming along, last one wasn’t great but was better, doing another batch tomorrow and making a few mods. Fingers crossed!

The recipe I’m using is the same as yours (well very similar) but I have only done 100l so I can use get some dunder to use moving forward.

So do you not bother with a stripping run, just put it straight through the 4 plates? What sort of collection rate do you use with that configuration? I’m getting better with the reflux column but am definitely still in the learning phase so am always keen to hear about other people’s configurations and methods.

crozdog

hi @Sam yeah no strip. I don't us e under but when I empty the fermenter, I sometimes leave the yeast covered then add some water and use some of the hot slops to help dissolve the next batch of molasses & sugar

to be honest, I haven't really measured the output rate. I go into full reflux at the start, slowly bleed off about 1-1.2l then increase power a bit for then wind back the water flow to the dephleg once i'm into hearts. when abv starts to drop, I start to increase the water flow to increase the reflux.

Remember there are no rules & everyones setup & objectives differ, so experiment, keep records & have fun working out what works for you

Sam

Thanks @crozdog I am experimenting as much as I can and will keep doing so until I find what works for me. I found your comment interesting as I have been having issues with the distillate being hot and not terribly pleasant with a fair bit of after burn. Next time I will definitely try to slow down the collection rate.

Out of interest does the same apply with pot stills or is it just a reflux thing.

RumBumm

So just to Hi-jack this a bit, what would people recommend then for using an old wine barrel. how long would you leave the rum in it for and at what AVB%.

Sam

Depends what you're looking for but somewhere between 55-65% might be a good start. There is lots of information on what ABV to mature at and the effect this has available online.

crozdog

As @Sam says, 55-65% is common to age at. I can't really comment on using a wine barrel for rum, apart from saying I'm not a big fan of red wine cask aged whisky - fortified wine casks are a different beast (think port/sherry etc). Oak ageing depends on lots of factors, the oak origin eg french vs american; toast and char level; what was in the barrel before etc etc

yo might like to try some from commercial producers before doing it yourself. downslope distillers are the only guys I found in a quick search who age rum in ex wine barrels

Sam

@crozdog I am working on a batch of rum at the moment, a blend of Panela & Treacle washes fermented with Distilamax RM at 30-32 degrees then pot distilled (its taken a few years but I have finally figured out what works for me).

This has actually turned into quite an undertaking (for a hobbyist) and I'm now thinking about barrels. I'm a big fan of Husk Distillers Triple Oak Rum (I know its Agricole but its delicious) which is aged in ex port, sherry, & bourbon barrels. Anyway I was thinking of getting some of Andrews sherry & port 'Super Casks' and an ex bourbon to see how it goes as I'm really impressed with how they have gone with my whisky. Have you tried a rum in any of the super casks?

Also from memory Illegal Tender Rum in WA use ex Shiraz casks, I have to say I tried their distillers reserve again recently and it wasn't as good as I remember it so would agree ex wine casks I don't find make the best whisky or rum. That said at $1k for a bottle of Lark's ex graveyard shiraz cask whisky people seem to like it...

punkin

We did a bulk buy of 100L Sepelts Octavia barrels a few years ago, and used them. Rum and bourbon with a few mates. There's probably a thread here somewhere if you search 'octavia'.

The spirit goes deeply red very quickly, 1 month or so for first fill and then onto domino's sounds about right from memory. After a couple of fills they work quite well.

The other option is to get them re-charred, it's pretty cheap from memory.

punkin

If you guys can get hold of @rossco he would still have a couple of the 100l octavia barrels and could give a long term overview. It'd be close to 10 years ago we did the bulk buy.

Sam

I think Beerco also have some octavia barrels for sale on their website

Smaug

The lads at Copper Bottom Distillery here in Florida do a rum with wine casks.

It is a good seller for them and hard to keep in stock.

crozdog

@Sam said: Anyway I was thinking of getting some of Andrews sherry & port 'Super Casks' and an ex bourbon to see how it goes as I'm really impressed with how they have gone with my whisky. Have you tried a rum in any of the super casks?

I've only used supercasks for whisky. Currently all my rum is in ex bourbon barrels. As far as I know, the supercasks are ex red wine that have been super heavily charred. I don't think they were port or sherry in previous lives. best to ask youngie to confirm.

CothermanDistilling

We have a chardonnay barrel filled with rum, it seems like it might take a bit more time than in a fresh used whiskey barrel. it is a bit larger at 60 gal, but I think the char more than makes up for the fact that wine barrels had a lower proof for less time than most whiskey barrels...

RumBumm

Thank you for all the feedback.

I will continue to play with the recipe and quality test as i go along. I was thinking that a red heart/captain Morgan type rum might come off the red of the barrel. Then hopefully develop depth in the flavor profile and take it from there

DonMateo

I have just bottled a nice light Irish whiskey from a wine barrel that was used for Chardonnay. It was an excellent barrel. Some barrels are good but every now and again one barrel just shines. When I open my distillery I will do a rum and put it on french oak.