UJSSM to AG

Johnboy

I'm on my 2nd gen UJSSM about to start 3rd and was wondering about the flavour differences by going to AG. So my question is do I need to start over or could I just cook my soured grain that is in my fermenter to convert the sugars and just keep cooking the top up grain as it gets used up? Or do I need to start with fresh grain each batch and just use backseat for the sour? Or am I just way off?

Also I don't seen to build a cap during my ferment maybe 100 or so floating grains but not a thick cap like others have discussed is this normal?

Cheers Johnboy

grim

Fresh grain and backset every batch. The reason you wouldn't bother using the old grain is that in an AG brew, you'll largely have extracted all the sugar from it, so adding it back is just taking up batch volume.

If you aren't getting a cap, sounds like you aren't getting a vigorous fermentation. I'd look at yeast pitch amount, nutrients, pH, and temperature.

Johnboy

cheers second batch fermented out in under 4 days at 26 with electric blanket on 24/7 as it was second gen I didn't add any new yeast(Should i have?) I added some dap at 1010 its carbon filtered rainwater so ph should be around 5-6 but haven't checked it.

FloridaCracker

No need to add yeast after first Gen. That is assuming that you don't let the grain bed dry out in between runs.

Johnboy

Nah filled with cold water once racked off into still 3 hrs later backset sugar mix in, lid on, fired up in about 2 hrs,ran out in under 4 days. been settling for 48 hrs will run tomorrow night. nice and slow see what we get. Im wondering if because I'm not getting a cap I'm not getting as strong a corn flavour and the rye is overpowering, giving me the spicy type flavour?

FloridaCracker

If you are fermenting out in 4 days, there is no problem with your yeast. My UJ take at least a week and I will let it sit for at least another week until no bubbles. I'm also in a warm climate so fermentation here is relatively quick.

Johnboy

its running 28-26degc in electric blanket

Johnboy

I used flaked maize and malted rye would that make a difference to forming a cap?

grim

Agree with @FloridaCracker, If you are finishing in 4 days, don't worry about it. You'll probably see more of a cap with AG, mostly because your grain volumes will be considerably higher, and you'll be cooking/gelatinizing your grain.

Johnboy

Im wanting to get to a JD style sour mash so AG is where I'll end up but would mashing part of the corn get me closer using the UJSSM recipe or am I just wasting time with this Recipe long term? Its cheap and easy while I'm learning but id have a crack at something a bit more complicated on the side i have 3 spare 60L fermenters

punkin

It's cheap, easy and makes a fine midshelf spirit with good ageing and quality wood.

You probably aren't getting a cap because you aren't using cracked corn. The cap is formed of all the small, light pieces.
Unless of course you are cracking the flaked stuff through a mill?

FloridaCracker

My UJ runs have always had a "rum" kinda flavor. The sugar comes through more than the grain.

Johnboy

I've checked the recipe section but no JD clone type recipe does anyone have a starting point for me?

punkin

I don't think there's anyone here that's trying to clone a commercial spirit mate. We are all striving to make better spirits than what you can buy from the big guys. You have to let the ingredients determine what you make, we have different corn, different water, different temperatures and climate.
You won't be using their house yeast, their sugar maple filtering system etc.

The idea is to take your local ingredients and play around till you find what works best for your tastes.In the meantime you will be learning fermentation and cuts that will make your spirit easily surpass Jack Daniels as you won't have the constraints of time, yield and repeatability that they do.

Johnboy

I understand that was just looking for a starting point ie 6kg corn 1kg rye .5 kg barley mash and run it no point me making 5-5-5 if it'll be rubbish? I'm happy to tweak something just like to be close ish

Johnboy

I can get fresh corn if it's better?

Unsensibel

You gotta decide first how you want to mash. Some people do gain in fermentation, I only do mash and sparge.

For bourbon your gain bill needs to be at least 50% corn. Some ppl gelatinize their corn, others buy flaked maize from HBS. The rest of the mash can be malted wheat or barley.

For the amounts, check out home brew websites. There's calculators on how much grain and water you need to reach a certain ABV. Personally sitting for anything higher than 8% will be tough as you're creating a thick porridge that's a bitch to sparge.

FloridaCracker

When I started out about 16 years ago, I actually followed the JD grain bill. Read about it in Cigar Aficionado magazine and it gave the percentages. One thing that I have learned is that if you keep at it you will be able to make a MUCH BETTER whiskey than JD. After drinking your own, well honed stuff, you won't want to go back to the store bought shit except to sample different stuff.

Punkin pretty much nailed it.

crozdog

@johnboy stepping into AG can be a daunting undertaking if you don't understand the process or have the equipment. have a good read of john palmers how to brew first. While it ain't hard it's a step up from UJSM. you do need more gear & definitely need to know what your doing / have a plan eg mash temp, sparge or not etc etc.

ag using cracked corn is a tough nut to crack & requires cooking your corn to gelatinise the starch- i'm still trying to get this process sorted after many years of trying so would not recommend it until you have tried a few things first.. If you do want to try AG i'd suggest to start out using flaked maize instead of cracked & cooking.

FYI if you drain the liquid off the mash use it for an AG ferment then dissolve some sugar & water in another fermenter & add to the 'spent" grain for a hybrid AG/UJSM as there will still be liquid (wort) & enough flavour left for a reasonable product

As far as an AG recipe i'd suggest reading some more & coming up with your own idea & then asking for suggestions. Have a look at this article for a starting point, then this spreadsheet - it is the most comprehensive I've seen for the grain ratios etc for.

don't forget that JD ages in new white oak & filters through maple charcoal. as the others have said, you can make much better - but it won't be the same. Like making AG beer, the grain bill is only a small aspect of the final product. Your process, mash temp, yeast choice, yeast pitch rate, ferment temp, distillation practices, cuts, oak choice, aging time etc etc all effect the finished product. you & I could both use the same grain bill & yeast but end up with 2 completely different products as there are so many variables.

understanding your process & controlling it is key to getting consistency from batch to batch.

crozdog

I forgot to say, do a search for Ian Smiley’s book ‘Making Pure Corn Whiskey’. it contains a lot of good info

Johnboy

Awesome great info thanks a lot won't have to talk the wife for a few nights with all the reading haha

FloridaCracker

Another thought to simplify things is to make an AG without corn. Maybe a wheat, barley, rye. Corn is a mo!#erfu@*@r to deal with when doing an AG. My first few attempts with it ended up like something that you would hang wallpaper with.

grim

Everyone's got an opinion here.

IMHO - easiest intro to all-grain american whiskies (+corn), is to cook it in a big ass pot, and ferment it on the grain in the same big ass pot, and then make a mess with a paint strainer bag to separate it when you are ready to distill. Do not worry about clearing it or letting it settle.

Yes, it makes baby jesus cry tears of pilsner, but it's easy, it's clean, requires no special equipment, requires no fancy grinding machinery, and significantly reduces infection risk. No recirculation rigs, no modified coolers, no spargers, no screens, etc etc etc.

I don't know if it has a name, but call it the "One Pot Method".

If you never use it again, you can use the big pot and propane burner to fry a turkey or boil a bunch of lobsters or shellfish for a party.

Unsensibel

@grim - do you mean like a BIAB style except that you don't lift the bag out until fermentation is complete?

grim

Similar, yes, but I wouldn't want to try to gelatinize corn in a bag.

It's much easier if you have a drill, and can just use a paint or mortar mixing paddle from your local big-box hardware store.

bachman

There is a video on you tube by a guy named pint-o-shine that is an excellent tutorial on how to cook corn

bachman

I use a 55 gallon drum and cook with steam. Works really nice, no stirring and no scorching

punkin

Pint is the owner of Artisan Distiller forums and sells the enzymes to accomplish what he did in the video. He is also a distillery consultant.

Mashing 100% corn on an open flame @ AD

Video and complete method here.