Ageing - Barrel Choice

Daniel

Gday guy's

I'm doing research because I want to get into stilling top shelf scotch. Not that flavored nail polish remover with a re-flux still. I have A question about ageing and barrel selection.

I want to mash and still a scotch from scratch, then have smooth drinkable scotch within 10yrs. What size barrel do I use? what changes when I change the size of the barrel? do I use french or american oak? I like a medium peat, what char level do I ues?

What I'm getting at is, could some one please give me a run down on everything barrel/ageing?

Thanks

Daniel

grim

See, there is your problem, "G'day" - right hemisphere, but the wrong one to make scotch in.

Traditionally, you'd be using a used charred American oak barrel with some years on it (At least 2-3 I think), and then optionally finishing in a used french oak sherry barrel (although some are just using the sherry these days). New charred american oak barrel and your scotch is going to be a great "peated malt-bourbon" in 10 years, way too much flavor contribution from the virgin wood and char. If you are going for vanilla, caramel, and deep color, this is what you'll get, but not traditional. Me? In my book bourbon beats scotch, so a light/medium peat malt whiskey in a new barrel sounds like a great idea, but maybe not for you.

If you are going to age for 10 years, I'd suggest avoiding some of the smaller barrels, you risk tannin astringency from too much oak contact. I'd err on the larger side, maybe a 30g/120l - if you can find one, or just go with 53g/200l.

The peat level is going to come from how much peated malt you will use. You may need to play around with the peat malt % in your mash bill before you settle on a % that you like. Definitely do a few test bills before you invest the effort, and especially the time, in laying down 30-53g of whisky for 10 years. Hard to just throw a percentage out for "medium peatiness", since the distillation is going to impact this, as will the type of peated malt used (or what you can even get).

You ever taste the stuff that goes into a barrel at some of those fancy whiskey distilleries up there? Some is good, but lots of it is nail polish remover, you could drive a bus through the greedy hearts cut some of those guys take, which is why it needs 15+ years to start tasting good. Cut tight and you can get away with fewer years to a better product - although I've tasted scotch so bad that no amount of time would fix it, so time doesn't cure all ills.

There are about a dozen things that will impact the overall product more significantly than the type of still, I'm not going to call it irrelevant, but your fermentation temperature will make a bigger difference in 10 years than what rig you distilled it on.

Smaug

So many variables. Such an investment just to find the combo that suits.

I think I'd try multiple batches and even try and employ a solera styled aging system with smaller barrels. Just be mindful of over oaking as @grim recommends.

Dunderhead used to say that anything over 8 years was just bragging rights. Not sure if that is true but with good cuts you could make it true enough.

@dad could chime here too because I had some of his smoked whiskey that he even presented to me with a disclaimer and was really very good.

punkin

If you were the guy at my house last week Daniel, i'd swap a used 50l barrel or three for new to help a brother out. The three sisters would be perfect for scotch as i've been tossing up sending a couple for recharring.

Harry

Just buy one (or part of). Ready-made and genuine...
Casks for sale: Available Now @ Whiskybroker.co.uk

punkin

You are kidding right? $2000au for the cheapest one and then freight to get it here from the other side of the world? Seems a bit pricey on a home scale.

I don't even want to think about the duty payable here on one of those.

Harry

Not kidding @punkin. Let's see how much the OP (or anyone else) eventually spends to do it himself. And I'll bet London to a brick on, he'd rather have drinkable spirit NOW than wait 10 yrs for a "maybe" result. Just an opinion but. ;)

Daniel

Nah it wasn't me at your place @punkin. I was going to go to a cooper in Adelaide who was reasonably priced and get him to make up a few old cherry barrels or some old french oak, something that didn't have bourbon in it. I cant stand the sweet taste of bourbon. had a bad night on the Jacks when I was young!

Hey if I can get a nice smooth, drinkable scotch in 2 to 5 yrs i am all for sticking it in smaller barrels. So long as it doesn't come out tasting like Johnny Red. So I might consider a few 50lt barrels over 5yrs rather than 200lt over 10yrs.

Can I get an Idea of what the final product will taste like while making cuts? I would hate to age a scotch for five yrs and find out that I hated the malt I used. or something like that.

@grim said: There are about a dozen things that will impact the overall product more significantly than the type of still, I'm not going to call it irrelevant, but your fermentation temperature will make a bigger difference in 10 years than what rig you distilled it on.

What about the still I will use?. I will be getting a Pot shot 2" complete form punkin in a few months. and I will have the old 50lt keg boiler. By no means as flash as some of the ones I seen on his sight but I hope it has the capability of producing great scotch.

I have also been brewing beer for years and I'am sure I have the fermentation temp control for beer under control, but for a higher ABV% mash for scotch mash im not very experienced. are there any trick you wish to share? I gather that because there is more sugar in the mash of a scotch that it runs at a higher temp.

@Smaug said: Dunderhead used to say that anything over 8 years was just bragging rights. Not sure if that is true but with good cuts you could make it true enough.

HAHAH. love it. ok so I need to take good cuts. copy that. I get it though, you don't want foreshot and tails in your final product making it taste like you have just licked a paint brush. sweet

grim

There is definitely a difference when taking very tight cuts and aging for a shorter period of time. You can produce a smoother spirit, but sometimes you lack a bit of the depth. Think Canadian Whiskey vs Scotch. Something to be said for putting it away a little bit dirty.

punkin

A neighbour of mine swapped out from a copper potstill i built him years ago to a potshot 2 last week. I was away for the weekend but he came over last night and said he wished he'd done the conversion years ago.

Said he was very impressed with the knockdown capability compared to his 900mm 1" over 3/4" liebig (he runs town water) and also said that he was extremely impressed with the flavour of his spirit run compared to the copper still.

I suggest you look up a recipe in our section here called 'fine scotch whiskey' i can possibly put you in touch with the author of the method (a customer of mine here in town) who seems to share the same goals as you do.

Daniel

yeah I had a look at the recipe. looks good. but Im not keen on using the coopers light malt. Is there a malt equivalent

punkin

I answered in the thread.

Daniel

Could some one please explain charring and is effect on taste. From what I can gather the carbon acts as a filter removing all the nasty s in the final product. We store the spirit at about %65 ABV and it will decrease with age, what effect does the charring have on the flavor? does it simply just taste a little smokey?

TheMechWarrior

Why we char?
Sterilise, Flavour, Colour

CothermanDistilling

charred oak can act as a carbon filter to absorb things, the raw wood can impart many flavors such as vanilla, and the stuff in between them adds this thing we call magic...

TheMechWarrior

OP also asked about char level and what oak to use.

My response would be find the scotch you like the most and do what they do.

Almost all would be medium to heavy char and American oak.

Last year's best whisky in the world was a French oak single malt from Tasmania.

So, cover your bets and use a combination of char and oaks and also consider a finishing barrel for rounding it out to something else.

Unsensibel

I'm with TMW. You need to figure out your liking. Best to do a batch and split into separate containers with different woods and chars. You'll notice different flavors coming through and you can determine what you like and maybe even blend.

Drunkas

Truth be truth I really don't think we need to be aging for 10 years at a time. Do your cuts right take the harts and nothing els throw in a glass demmy for 6 to 12 months with some oak and there is your 10 year old liqueur.

Kapea

@TheMechWarrior said: Last year's best whisky in the world was a French oak single malt from Tasmania.

=))

punkin

Different ageing times and oak amounts will also affect the flavour and colour. The perturbations are endless.

Daniel

Yeah I think ill do my first batch in demmies with oak chips, coz the initial cost of 3-4 barrels is rater high. the second will hopefully be split over 3 or 4 different barrels with different char aged over the next few years.

Thanks heaps for all your help gentlemen, ill have so sent ya a dram once ive got my self going.

waxernz

Anyone ever try a clay urn like baijiu is made in. They still let them breath through the lid like a wood cask slowly over time.The distillery my in laws visited used a wood lid. Would there be any benefit to plugging a glass jar with something like wood and using the dominos?

punkin

I just throw the seal away on the cookie jars. Mostly cause i don't want the rubber to taint the product but it also lets it breath to such a point that you have to very careful about abv loss if you leave it in there longer than a couple of months.

rossco

Punkin the junk shops down here are selling 6litre mason style jars with stainless lids for $15 or so each. Bought a few to age brandy in, put them on top of the kegerator. I got two with taps and stands and replaced the taps with stainless from ebay. Now you can have a shot while you wait for the first pour on your beer to settle :))

punkin

I'll have a look mate thanks.

Daniel

Ah yeah. gotta love those junk shops. I get all kinds of ceramic jugs there to age me reflux stuff in. ya get like 10lt storage for $4. Gotta make a new brew cupboard, coz all my stuff is taking over the cooks nice buffet. Ha. Might make a cage like Punkin, keep my mates outa there!