Home › General › Accessories
Welcome!
Be part of our community & join our international next generation forum now!
Categories
In this Discussion
- BourbonJunkie April 2015
- CothermanDistilling April 2015
- dellae April 2015
- fadge April 2015
- googe April 2015
- grim April 2015
- Mickiboi April 2015
- Myles March 2015
- punkin March 2015
- TheMechWarrior March 2015
- Unsensibel April 2015
- Whitecap April 2015
Solenoid Valve
Hey all, I've been farting around thinking about solenoid valves for ages now, uming and areing what to do. I was going to do a Swede/od type setup, but after much thinking, I don't want full auto, id still like some hands on. So, is there a away that's not to hard or expensive to have a switch/dial etc on my control panel to control flow for the rc's?. Thanks for any help.
Cheers
Tagged:
Comments
How about plumbing a valve next to your panel? Anything else seems like a waste...
I am also in favour of the coolant control board with hand valves.
With coolant supplies you don't need to have the valves located close to the condensers. Plumb in rigid coolant lines and just have short flexible hoses to connect the condensers to the permanent supply and return lines. Insert all the control valves in a convenient location for yourself.
I used ball valves as isolation on the supply lines and gate valves as flow control on the return lines. However, that was just me being fussy because I had multiple condensers plumbed in and they were not all in use at the same time.
I have my valves wall mounted beside my still atm, have had it like that for a long time, heaps better than on the condenser. I must be fussy to Myles, your setup sounds very similar. I just wanted to try electric controlle valves for something different, maybe finer control and for the neatness of having all controls in the one control box. If I can't find I way to do it electronically I'll try enclose the valves in a waterproof area inside the control box. Was looking at a paint application machine at work the other night, it has paint going into control valves and live switches in there as well, so can't be that hard.
There are two types of valves, solenoid valves that can approximate proportional control (via pwm), and ball or globe valves with motor driven actuators that use a proportional signal, either voltage 0-10v or current 0-20ma/4-20ma.
If you have solenoids, you might be able to find an off-the-shelf PWM controller. It will probably have a few switches and a knob, allowing you to set the frequency as well as provide manual control of the duty cycle.
For a proportional actuator, it should be relatively easy to put together something as well, especially for the 0-10v models. All you really need is a 10v power supply and some additional circuitry to allow you to adjust the voltage with a potentiometer.
How savvy are you with electronics? Do you want me to post a schematic? There are some other web pages that discuss both of these, others have built these kinds of "simulators" as well.
Sounds like an interesting project. It would allow you to put the valves in the ideal location from a plumbing perspective, but the actual controls in a location that is ideal from a user perspective. I like it!
PWM Simulator:
PWM Module Frequency 1Hz-100KHz Pulse Signal Generator Servo Duty Cycle 1~99% @ eBay
0-10V/0-20ma Simulator:
4-20mA Current Signal Generator 0-10V Voltage Generator Transducer Simulator @ eBay
Thanks grim, sounds like what I'm after!. Havnt been able to find much about it online that I can understand!. I'm not elec savvy at all lol, I love fiddling with stuff like this but just get lost with how it all works!. I would love a schematics of it if you wouldn't mind?. Is this pwm the type you mean?
Regulator PWM DC 6V 12V 24V 28V 3A Motor Speed Control Switch Controller @ eBay
with the servo and the generator you posted, would I just need to hook a pot up to either?. Thanks again, very grateful.
Yes please :)
If you have 12VDC, you should be able to make a 'knob' version of the simulator for a few dollars...
If you take the outside terminals of the SD 500K pot, and put it in series with a 100K pot across the 12V, the SD pot will have 10V across it... now your center, wiper terminal has 0-10V, and a johnson valve works just great on 0-10V....
but is this what you want? probably not, as you just made an automatic valve manual... I think what you really want is a knob for 'temperature', not 'valve position'...
to get temp control, you will need PID.... with a sestos or omron, you have to use buttons to go up or down, I do not see a way to make it work with a knob unless you use some sort of PLC based controller...
if you want a 'manual' control of 'temperature', the danfoss is the simplest...
if you want the most cost efficient, accurrate temperature control, the sestsos/Johnson combo cannot be beat.
another option is the valve they use for people with solar how water heaters that heat the tank water to 180F... it is called a tempering valve.... (it is just s different type of thermostatic valve)
Sorry cotherman, I don't follow electric talk very well!. Are you saying with a pot and simulator, it will be on/off, not a variable open close?. With the pid, do you mean using the temp up down buttons I'll be able to open/close the valve to any setting manually?. I would like a turn dial setup but push button would be cool also.
Edit, from.my understanding, solenoid valves are full open/full closed?, not adjustable so they can be opened 1/4 way, half way etc?, is that correct?.
I wouldn't use this motor controller on a proportional valve actuator.
For a solenoid, the PWM frequency of the motor controller is way too high (21khz), the one I posted above can run at 1Hz, which is within the capability of a good quality small solenoid. For smaller condensers, you probably want to run solenoids in 1 second or somewhat lower frequencies, since if your water supply is cold, you will very quickly overwhelm the condenser with cold water. If you graphed the temp, it will look like fast-attack sawtooth wave pattern.
I might even run a really good small solenoid at 2-4hz. Clicking would drive you nuts though.
Never mind the one I posted isn't right either, I didn't read the description.
with a 4-20mA simulator on a proportional valve, it will be variable open-partial-close, but it will not have anything to do with temperature, it will be more like a remote control manual valve.
with a pwm on a solenoid valve it will work, it will be the same with a PWM simulator...
it takes a PID to control for temp...
an interesting thing for solenoid folks to try would be a needle valve on a secondary bypass circuit with maybe 75% of the flow you think you need... then the solenoid would only have to act 25% as often...
A remote control manual valve is what @googe wants.
StillDragon Australia & New Zealand - Your StillDragon® Distributor for Australia & New Zealand
then a SD 500K pot, add a 100k resistor, wire across 12VDC, and you have 0-10V to control a valve like a johnson with... the valve likely needs 24vac, so you may need 2 power supplies... not much you can do to un-complicate that though...
Thanks @grim, @CothermanDistilling. Thanks @punkin, should have got you to ask for.me lol. yes, that's what I want. I'm not good with terminology!, so, I'm a tad lost!. It does sound to complicated though. was just a thought I had that I didn't think would be hard to do, but as I've learnt electronics and valves are a brain breaking combo lol. I just don't understand it all enough, in my mind I should be able to just connect some sort of power supply that switches on/off, like a up/down switch and it will open close a motorized ball valve to a setting I want, see, I've got no idea lol.
This would be cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN7Wl2Uwb8s
with a plain 'motorized' valve (not proportional), you just replace the actuator in the video with the valve, and you are all set...
Thanks @CothermanDistilling, that's good to know :D . Was thinking last night, yeah bad idea lol. But, if I got a valve like this for example:
motorized ball valve DN15, 1/2" 12V 2 way, electrical valve @ eBay
and connected a 12v apply to it with a momentary push button switch, could I just use the switch to open or close the valve in stages to set my reflux?. Or do them type valves just fully open, fully close when power is shut off, or would they stop at any point you cut power?.
they stop when you cut power... at that price, can't hurt to try...
Thanks @CothermanDistilling, wasn't sure about the cutout thing. I'm gunna order stuff and try it, seems.simple!
Wormdrive connected to a manual valve stem? Or how about a motorised chain drive for a manual valve. Just thinking a motorised gate valve might be a bit more controlable. Expecially with gearing involved.
Thanks for this, just found a use for it today for filling 50mL bottles using a precision dosing pump like the one shown in the attached image.
Put a flexible extended end on for dispensing multiple bottles and use a switch to trigger the fill.
They'd all work well id imagine Myles :-bd was thinking a rc servo on a needle valve would workalso?. Cool mech, got a link?.
They are ~$300. I have seen them listed at twice that price though. You need to shop around. I deal direct with Imbros. Check out Cole Palmer for an online price. I'll look for a link.
Thanks @TheMechWarrior, put of my price range lol.
I ordered the ball valve and this switch. I'm needing a little advice though, I have a few 12V converters I can use here to run it, but is there a way to run it off the SSR for the element, or some other way apart from using a converter? Any help appreciated.
Like googe, I would like to put some controls on my dephlegmator this year as well; Unlike googe, I would like to automate the temp and happen to have a few similar valves (1) laying around along with an extra PID (2).
Would the PID be able to do variable control of the ball valve based on temp? If it is just on/off controls would the ball valve be too slow (open/close time 3-5 seconds) to get the job done right?
(1)- Electric ball valve specs (CWX-15N, CR-03)- CWX-15 Brass Electric Water Valve 25mm Full Bore 1'' CR03/CR04 Control 5V,12V or 9-24V 3PCS @ Aliexpress
(2)- PID specs (SYL-2352)- SYL-2342, SYL-2352 PID TEMPERATURE CONTROLLER INSTRUCTION MANUAL (PDF) @ Auber Instruments
An on/off ball valve is going to be a problem. It can't maintain a proportional position, only on or off. In addition, they are generally too slow to operate in the way an on/off solenoid would (to approximately proportional flow). Its one thing to short-cut the stroke to stop it somewhere mid-way, but repeatability is going to be difficult.
You would need a proportional control valve, like a Johnson or Belimo valve, that has a 0-10v or 0-20ma control input. This control input would be wired directly to a PID controller.
I wouldn't at all recommend anyone buy one new, but they are plentiful on the surplus market or eBay.
For Johnson - Look for a "GGA" valve - GGA indicates 0-10v/0-20ma proportional.
Here is a nice one for a mid size rig - 3/4 valve
Here is a nice one for a small rig using mains water - 1/2 valve
That 1/2 is only $30 with free ship in the US.
This one also a good deal, $40+ ship, looks like a newer unit.
You need big iron for a big rig? Here's a dirt cheap 1" proportional johnson.
I might buy that last one just for the brass valve body. Or @CothermanDistilling you might find it useful to reduce the pump head pressure in your rig.
I cannot agree more with @grim - going to PID controlled RC water flow was almost as big a step for me as going from a PDA-1 boka style still to the SD dash 1 4-plater.... seriously....
FYI - with line losses minimized by using short 5/8" ID lines and 1/2" copper to the RC ports, I can get 3.9GPM from a 1/6hp centrifugal pump on an 8" RC and a 1/2" Johnson valve (with the plastic linear flow restrictor in place) and knock down 11KW easily.... I still got over 3GPM with a march 809/815 1/25th HP pump, but it was not ignition proof..