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All about connecting your Cooling Water Supply to your Condensers!

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  • edited March 2015

    Deflegmator cooling water outlet temperature is the critical parameter. That controls reflux rate. Product condenser cooling water temp only needs to be low enough so that all vapor condenses. Fine control of flow at the product condenser is not necessary. Set your control valve on the defleg so that the VFD can control to your temperature set point there while pushing enough water through your product condenser. Varying flow through the product condenser does not matter as long as all of the vapor is knocked down. The VFD is looking at one set point. No valves changing position. No hunting.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • @Kapea this is valid enough. Product temperature isn't really critical, so long as it is condensed. Most folks don't really need to maintain a product temperature and there should be enough surplus thermal capacity in the PC to cope with any coolant variations.

    The only really important condenser is the dephlegmator, and as you say that needs to be temperature stable. Even with my fairly simple pressurised system, with only a few valves in the system the pump is more than capable of maintaining a few condensers in operation at the same time.

    The only time I really had problems was with full reflux on a vinegar cleaning run. I managed to heat my reservoir enough that the PC could not cope, and I filled the steam room with WATER vapour. No alcohol involved.

  • of both RC and PC are temp controlled in a reasonably decent fashion, the two can coexist on a single pump... especially with a slow moving proportional valve on the RC.... it is how I have run every single batch on my 380L....

  • The both share a single pie. What one doesn't get, the other one does.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • edited March 2015

    If you can control your PC as well as your RC, and keep it in a tight range (why else would you control), it makes it easy to post a simple one page table on the wall next to your parrot for quick and easy temperature correction.

    Or if you were so inclined, and had the cooling capacity to hold it at your hydrometer calibration temperature, you wouldn't need the chart at all.

    Either way, it certainly beats guessing (reading the hydrometer without even knowing the distillate temperature).

    For those guys who are commercial, you can make the claim to the AHJ that your system can manage the distillate temperature such that it falls under the flash point for the distillate ABV. So not only can it control for potential vapor release, it can manage for flash point too.

  • Try running tree condensers at once then start complaining lol

  • So THAT'S how they make those bonsai trees! =D>

  • @grim said: If you can control your PC as well as your RC, and keep it in a tight range (why else would you control), it makes it easy to post a simple one page table on the wall next to your parrot for quick and easy temperature correction.

    Or if you were so inclined, and had the cooling capacity to hold it at your hydrometer calibration temperature, you wouldn't need the chart at all.

    Either way, it certainly beats guessing (reading the hydrometer without even knowing the distillate temperature).

    For those guys who are commercial, you can make the claim to the AHJ that your system can manage the distillate temperature such that it falls under the flash point for the distillate ABV. So not only can it control for potential vapor release, it can manage for flash point too.

    That is probably the best argument for two pumps and cooling loops, you can have the RC with just a heat exchanger/radiator/fan/whatever outside before it returns to supply tank at a temp of 120F or more, and a lower temp supply for the PC, optionally with a glycol chiller...

    That being said but cooling distillate to 60F is overkill in my climate... and going to a different temp you need to be accurate to a tenth of a degree, but even having 10 tables for each tenth of your range is easier than a hundred pages and having to do double interpolation...

  • edited March 2015

    @CothermanDistilling said: and going to a different temp you need to be accurate to a tenth of a degree, but even having 10 tables for each tenth of your range is easier than a hundred pages and having to do double interpolation...

    Multiple interpolations in what Excel spreadsheets are good for. Type in two readings and the corrected value appears.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • OK... timed test... random numbers... 77.6 degrees 86.3 proof... show your work

  • OK, here is my method from the TTB instructions...

    77.6 degrees 86.3 proof

    86 at 77 = 78.5

    87 at 77 = 79.6

    diff is 1.1, .3 * 1.1 = .330

    86 at 77 = 78.5

    86 at 78 = 78.1

    diff is -.4, .6 * -.4 = -.24

    78.5 + .33 -.24 = 78.590 --> 78.6 proof....

  • @CothermanDistilling said: OK... timed test... random numbers... 77.6 degrees 86.3 proof... show your work

    I direct your attention to my signature below. B-)

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • edited March 2015

    Plot enough data points to use a curve generator to create a curve equation with an acceptable R squared value. Enter that equation into an Excel spreadsheet. Now you have a continuous function, so no interpolation is required.

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • TTB would frown on that curve, right fellow DSP holders?

  • edited March 2015

    They make you use an abacus and type your report with triplicate carbon paper? If the data is correct within the specified degree of accuracy why would it matter? Those volumes of antique tables are ball-busters!

    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • here is the abacus progress... never touched android studio before, just perl, c, fortran, etc... so kind of daunting...

    image

    abacus_progress.jpg
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  • edited March 2015

    Cool!
    How is the underlying math processed?

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    abacus2.jpg
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    I'm more like I am now than I was before.

  • naaa.. I use Google's pigeonrank system...

  • edited March 2015

    @CothermanDistilling - not sure anymore in which posting you put the TTB table, but here (XLSX) is the MS Excel logic.
    I think it maps the TTB adjustment in one cell...
    Tried mapping it on a 3D graph but it looks pretty unspectacular. Also kinda hard to use as reference since it's not easy to extrapolate from a printout

    xlsx
    xlsx
    TTB Table.xlsx
    2M
  • thanks for that xlsx, I had to reverse engineer another thing to get it myself, but looks the same as you first tab...

    You don't really want to interpolate every value ahead of time and then store in that second tab (well, maybe you do)... and mapping is not going to give anything useful.

    interpolation on the fly is simple

    77.6 degrees 86.3 proof <---given

    86 at 77 = 78.5 <---lookup

    87 at 77 = 79.6 <---lookup

    diff is 1.1, .3 * 1.1 = .330 <---simple math

    86 at 77 = 78.5 <---lookup

    86 at 78 = 78.1 <---lookup

    diff is -.4, .6 * -.4 = -.24 <---simple math

    78.5 + .33 -.24 = 78.590 --> 78.6 proof.... <---simple math

    put into a app, and done.... (well, add in things like stored calibration numbers for your instruments and such)

  • The first tab is the TTB table that you posted.

    Second tab is calculating the values in between based on a starting point and the increments given. I hard coded all values for the sake of space and kept the formula only in the top left cell (C9). Formula is written so that you can copy & paste over the whole range (the recalculation will slow down your PC though).

    What you can do with it is create a custom table to print out for the standard/expected ranges that you measure in for proofing without having an app on hand or doing the calculation. Let's say that your standard ambient temp is between 60-70F, then most likely, the product for proofing would be at the same temp range & there's not really a need to do anything.

    From a theoretical computing standpoint, I think it offers some advantages as 3 x lookup + calculation will have a longer runtime than 1x lookup assuming there's no memory limitations. But then again is anyone going to notice considering current computing power....

    Last but not least, if you want a correlation function that maps the TTB table & adjustment, then you can create the data & unleash whatever algorithm you want against it for tuning...

  • edited March 2015

    @Anavrin said: Heres a quick diagram of what i was rambling on about earlier, it should allow adjustments to the dephlagmator flow without affecting the flow in the product condensor flow.

    The idea with the two extra valves alows the cooling water flow through the RC to be reduced by creating a bypass or short circuit.

    You still set the cooling up as usual with the two standard valves, the ypass valve should be closed and the additional valve is full open.

    once you have 100% reflux and are at the point where you want to start collecting, you start to open the bypass valve, this creates another path for the water so the flow through the RC reduces, however the total flow through the RC and bypass valve is equal to what you had originally at 100% reflux, so adjustments dont affect the pressure/flow to the product condensor.

    If you find that once the bypass valve is fully open, you still need to reduce the RC flow, start to close the additional valve, as the bypass is open, it should only have a minimal effect if any on the product condensor flow.

    image

    It can be a LOT simpler than that.

    2 control valves only. 1 for overall flow rate on the coolant inlet line. 1 for dephlegmator coolant discharge/heat control. The RC operates Counter-current dephlamation. Auto air bubble purging to waste. Solid dephlegmator temp control. The secret is split discharge.

    Hope this helps...

    image

    Harrys simple water control system.jpg
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